Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1268718137

From: "Belinda Dettmann" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Y-DNA clade naming
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:42:17 +1100
References: <70982D78CDAD4EB2A62F999DBA19A068@HP><>
In-Reply-To: <>

Oh, for the days when things were simple!

First there was R1b, and that covered three quarters of the population of
Europe. Then that metamorphosed into R1b1c. That in turn became R1b1b2, and
some brave and forward-looking souls explained that it could be more simply
described as R-M269. About the same time the Irish found the Y-DNS
signature of Niall of the Nine hostages, and his descendants were equated to
R1b1c7, or R-M222. What's more, the descendants of Niall could be identified
from their STR values! Wonderful - why couldn't we do that for all of
R1b1b2? Well, we couldn't, though John McEwen tried very hard, before giving
up on human genetics and becoming the world expert on the DNA of sheep.

Meanwhile Ethnoancestry was beavering away, finding men with S116 and S21
and S28 (and where the heck had they all come from?)

There things rested for a while, until Thomas started the Walk through the Y
project, and 23andMe started describing Y-SNPs for all their male customers.
In no time at all we had FTDNA testing for R-U106 (=S21) and R-P312(=S116)
and RU152(=S28). And under S21/U106 was found L48, and under P312/S116 was
found S28 and L21. And they all got renamed many times over, with names like
Or R-P312=S116=R1b1b2a1a1a2*=E1b1b2a1a1b*.
Or R-M222=R1b1c7=R1b1b2a1b5=R1b1b2a1b5b.

I don't believe any name is intrinsically better than any other. They are
all just labels, and useful for different situations. I keep a sheet of
definitions in front of me when I look up my relatives' Y-DNA (R1b)
subclades, otherwise I'd never remember them all anyway. And I don't
possess any Y-DNA as I'm female.

Dennis, M222 will only stay M222 until someone discovers a mutation
downstream of it. They haven't yet, but that's not say it won't happen.
Look what's happened to M269.

Och Aye


The problem with the I2a2a nomenclature is that it is constantly changing as
new SNPs are found and added as tags to the yTree. (Ken
states it is now I2a2a1, (at least I think that is what he said it is now)
and no doubt will change again)

Take M222. From its discovery and through the 2006-7 ISOGG it was named
R1b1c7. With the finding of new SNPs upstream it became
R1b1b2a1b6b in the ISOGG 2008 tree and in the ISOGG 2009-10 tree it is now
R1b1b2a1a2f2. R-M222 is easier and will not change.
At ISOGG in 2006, R1b1c meant M269+, but in 2009-10 R1b1c refers to M335+.

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This thread: