Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1268857695

From: peter spencer <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] English genealogy
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:28:15 -0500
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

The following decades regional surveys does not conclude that there are 1000
resident productive SURVIVORS of the harrying ..

they conclude that there are close to 1000 surveyed productive TENANTS in
the region-
(which admittedly could in some cases factor only the Tenant / head of a
family, not including small children/wife/grandparents).

Most of the land that was returned to productivity was at the behest of
Norman nobles who sought tenants to earn them income by cultivating what
became their landed estates .
The true number is likely greater than described by contemporary sources, as
a factor of family members not valued as productive or who are mobile as a
means of evasion / gleaning for subsistence
But, the problem is, the numbers even inflated say five-fold, do not
differentiate between a Norman loyalist left in place after the massacres
who is a descendant of roman/viking era populations,
and the very significant known immigrant infux to the region from Lancs,
Cumberland, Westmoreland.. etc.. who simply migrated 75 miles to get a
better lease from the landholders now desperate to generate income from a
desolated new estate they were awarded.

These populations are not the original inhabitants of the desolated regions,
nor is a lowland scot who could be lured to a landholding promising more
favorable terms than found in his well-settled home.

As to the debate over the degree of the extermination, the Domesday survey
in 1086 uniquely applies the term 'waste' to much of the regions so
harried, meaning nothing of value to tax existed there for the crown.
(NOTE-this is nearly 20 years after the extermination campaign had ended)
Deliberate and methodical efforts were made to ensure that no foodstuffs of
any kinds survived for any concealed populations to later subsist off of.

This was a determined and no-expenses spared attempt at genocide in these
locales, so bad that Williams own court clergy document fury at
doubt at their own personal risk.
I can see individual norman loyalists to some extent being spared and
or those of known relatedness to normans,
/ those who acted as turncoats..etc..
but even they are likely being removed to the south, Lancs etc.. where they
would have means to procure subsistence.
A entire region decimated of all foodstuffs, ALL fodder, all livestock, all
tools, weapons, in the fall..
depopulated and raided by punitive expeditions at least twice that we know
of (the later to mop up those who escaped earlier) its pretty clear that the
majority of the gene pool of this NE region derives primarily from later
arrivals attracted by special financial / lease holding terms that we know
in several instances nobles offered to attract tenants to come work these

There is certainly the question of those who may have fled the region,
stayed off the roads, and made it into Scotland, west/east midlands, when
word of the nature/scope of the purge spread, but that is as far as I know a
unanswered question in its scope, as is what portion of that body would
likely have been received favorably by the scared locals or left unmolested
when the normans discovered their location.

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:34 PM, <> wrote:

> --
> > there were only about a thousand residents left alive in the regional
> > census even ten years later..
> ---
> 1,000 residents would be all that is needed if that figure is correct.
> I am only looking for one of them to reproduce. You won’t know if there
> are any at all until you look.
> There were only 102 passengers on the Mayflower and that was not even
> 400 years ago and look at the number of descendants who trace their
> ancestry from them.
> ---
> > Thus- its very unlikely most/any of those folks ancestry were
> > actually present in York prior to 1067-8, since those that were
> > there were enmasse slaughtered punitively, with the exception of some
> > females.
> ---
> All it takes are a few pregnant females. But don’t the English
> geneticists themselves question that “conquer and annihilation” history?
> I know there are geneticists out there who are looking for the answers
> utilizing scientific methodology and probability statistics. If Stephen
> Oppenheimer, Mark G. Thomas and Mark A. Jobling all end up agreeing
> with you, then I might be more likely to be convinced. Why not collect
> the samples (with enough markers, please) and see what calculations can
> be made, if any, back to the immigrant ancestor? More examples from the
> Balkans and other places would have to be compared and put in clusters
> as well. All it takes is one haplotype with unusual and traceable
> markers that survived to the present with enough diversity to be a
> significant finding.
> Kathy J.
> -------------------------------
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