Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1268873177

From: argiedude <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b1* and J* in Bali, Indonesia
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:46:17 -0300
References: <>,<>
In-Reply-To: <>

Great post, Didier.

> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:13:14 +0000
> From:
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b1* and J* in Bali, Indonesia
> I still didn't find (and didn't read the article) but on the basis of what was posted here I
> think a migration around 18000 years ago , both for R1b* and J* is possible .

You noted what the others have missed, that this isn't just R1b1*, it's also the presence of J*, which is proportionately even harder to explain. The fact that we have 2 West Eurasian lineages that are very hard to justify as being due to a historic cause raises the question of these haplogroups in Indonesia being there since paleolithic times.

There is even a 3rd anomaly in the West Eurasian lineages of Indonesia, though it's not nearly as bad as R1b1* and J*. Haplogroup H* makes up 17/20 = 85% of the H samples found in Indonesia, but back in India, H* is a small subset of y-dna H, with the vast majority belonging to H1 and H2.

Plus some other things I didn't add. These West Eurasian lineages are uniformly distributed across WESTERN Indonesia, but they stop very sharply at the Wallace Line division between east and west Indonesia. This division mirrors the distribution of the local haplogroups C, M, S, which Karafet believes are of paleolithic presence. It's understandable that paleolithic lineages would be sharply separated along Wallace's Line, but it doesn't make sense that navigators from India in historic times would diffuse their genes in identical manner; the ocean division between east and west Indonesia would be meaningless to them. If you put these 2 things together, it makes a very good argument that these haplogroups could have been floating around in Indonesia since the Ice Age.

> What appears is that R1b* area of dispersion is even wider than already known . There
> might be some reason for such an ease to move to new places.

But notice that J also managed to do the same. And R1a! R1a is actually found at respectable frequencies in west Indonesia, and of course it also stretches all the way to West Europe, like J and R1b.

> I don't know if this can be related but dogs were found to be of ancient origin both in Asia and in Africa (with contest on who is first). R1b* is by now the only link I know of . It doesn't necessarily mean R1b is at the origin but they may have played a role in a fast dispersion of dogs. Just a thought...
> Didier
> > Argiedude's argument is that both
> > R1b1* and R1b1b1 are rare among the
> > Dutch. Which is true, though we do have Dutch members
> > of the R1b1*
> > project at FTDNA.
> >
> > VV
> >

It's a matter of probabilities. 2 R1b1b2 were found in Indonesia. R1b1* and R1b1b1 probably represent just 0,1% of north European y-dna, yet 2 of these haplogroups were found. Exceptionally unlikely.

> > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Belinda Dettmann wrote:
> >
> > > Why can't it be European? Indonesia was a Dutch colony
> > from the
> > > 1600s until
> > > WWII.
> >

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