Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1268964098

From: argiedude <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Map of Indian haplogroups in Indonesia
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:01:38 -0300
References: <BAY128-W29D7961D886B2561B0EA2BC82C0@phx.gbl>,<BAY128-W1872C5C2F2F332BC5258DC82A0@phx.gbl>,<>
In-Reply-To: <>

You're missing the point, again. It doesn't matter if R1b1 is 0,07%. The study found 2 R1b1b2 samples, which show the limit of the extent of European ancestry. Together with these 2 samples there were 2 samples of R1b1*. R1b1b2 is 50% of Dutch y-dna and R1b1* is probably 0,1% or less. I just made a quick simulation in Excel, assuming a sample size of 4 and a frequency of 0,1% for R1b1*, of the odds of finding 2 or more R1b1* samples. In 24,000 iterations, there wasn't a single run that produced 2 or more R1b1*.

You're also forgetting about the 3 samples of J*, which are even harder to explain, as a historic event, than R1b1*.

And you're not considering the main point of my post. I made a detailed map of the haplogroups of Indian origin (H, J, L, R1a, R2) in Indonesia, using almost all the y-dna studies published to date. The result is incredible. There's a very sharp cline right along Wallace's Line. To the west these haplogroups make up 10% of the y-dna, just about everywhere. But to the east, they drop to virtually nothing, to 0.15%, to be precise. A 60-fold difference, one of the sharpest y-dna clines anywhere in the world. Why would historic Indian navigators decide to stop dead in their tracks exactly at Wallace's Line? It makes no sense. The answer is given by the author of the latest study which prompted me to look into this. She notes the sharp division along Wallace's Line for the Melanesian haplogroups C, M, S, and states that this division reflects their paleolithic origin. That makes sense. Great. Now I've shown that the haplogroups of Indian origin show a cline along Wallace's Line that is just as steep as in the case of the Melanesian haplogroups. Add to this picture several specific characteristics of some of these Indian haplogroups that are extremely hard to justify from a historic perspective, such as the presence of J*, R1b1*, and H*, and it all indicates that these haplogroups have been existing in Indonesia for a lot longer than we think.

> I won't speak to the H or J, but would like to remind the list that
> the samples are not R1b1*, but rather R1b1(xM269). And the frequency
> of these "incredible" R1b1 samples is 0.07% in the study.
> VV
> On Mar 18, 2010, at 8:24 PM, argiedude wrote:
> > Add to this the very interesting details about some of these Indian
> > haplogroups that are very hard to explain as a historic diffusion,
> > namely, the presence of J*, H*, and R1b1*.

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