Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1269029789

From: peter spencer <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] English genealogy
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:16:29 -0500
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:12 PM, <> wrote:

> > These populations are not the original inhabitants of the desolated
> regions,
> >
> ------
> Is that true of just West Riding, or the entire area? And are the
> geneticists and historians all in agreement with that statement? I really
> do
> appreciate the historical assessment but I am not clear on the consensus of
> opinion here.
> If a significant number of male descendants can be found in a region of
> Northern England who seem to have common Balkan roots based on advanced
> Y-DNA SNP testing, the questions I have for the geneticists are:
> 1. Is there a chance that the time back to the immigrant ancestor can be
> established?
> 2. If not the immigrant ancestor, then can the time back to the
> bottlenecking of genetic types, even as long as a thousand years ago be
> established?
> 3. Can the location of this original ancestry in the Balkans be estimated
> based on a modal type?
> 4. If there is a clear paper trail of a particular surname and similar
> haplotype (but with several mutational differences) back 500 years, is that
> enough to rule out more recent Balkan immigration?
> 5. Aren't there phylogeographical methods that employ specific markers and
> statistics to establish migration patterns?
> 6. If a very specific Eastern European subhaplogroup did not enter the
> British Isles during Roman times, but the modal progenitor entered there,
> say,
> before the time of surnames, then what else would be the most likely
> explanation of this entry into the local population?
> It would seem that DNA evidence would trump historical reporting, though
> one would like to see an agreement between the two when connecting the
> dots.
> I would love to hear a debate between the historians and the geneticists if
> there is a disagreement along these lines. Sounds like an idea for a BBC
> documentary...
> Kathy J.
> -------------------------------

Kathy.. if you are not currently a solicitor, you should look into a career

There are many ways, not immediately evident if viewed from a exclusively
'conquest' standpoint, that a 'balkan' (I presume you refer in part to say
old I1b- i apologize for my outdated terminology) heritage Hg could become
established in the modern border ridings that takes little if any degree of

This is far from a isolated or unvisited locale historically. I would
direct you that a area such as Berwick and of little trade-distinction or
import in more recent times was the major port in the North, at a time when
migrations controls were non-extant, and isles exports were matched by
inbound foreign trade/ shipping -

"Berwick, by the middle of the 13th century, was considered a second
Alexandria, so extensive was its commerce."

You have ships departing to and arriving from Hanseatic league ports such as
which have ships crewed/captained by Poles, estonians, latvians, not mention
swedes, norwegians, danes.. employed by the Germans .
To compete for Hanseatic trade business London itself at one point exempted
them from duties on goods to lure them.
This does not even touch on unaligned Baltic trading vessels, or
Mediterranean crewed vessels that have their crews tipping pints in the
local pubs.

Berwick is also another (later) example of a locale in which the native
population of current times has absolutely zero genetic relatedness to the
population going back into its scandinavian-settlement era. The entire
population was massacred man, woman, and child when Edward incorporated the
formerly scots-border riding town into England-

"On 30 March 1296, Edward I stormed Berwick after a prolonged siege, sacking
it with much bloodshed. His army slaughtered almost everyone who resided in
the town, even if they fled to the churches, some eight thousand inhabitants
being put to the sword. "From that time", states Eddington, "the greatest
merchant city in Scotland sank into a small seaport."

Today Berwick is still a 'english' town and to the unaware, gives no
indication of the crossroads it once was or its former like as scotlands
major trade centre.

All the above are esentially indicative that for whatever readily apparent
facts may be common knowledge today, many other discarded historical facts,
or deliberately forgotten ones, may be lurking.

there is a certainty that ships from across the baltic (in regions well
supplied with I1b, R1a, I1a..etc..) stopped regularly in the gateway to
modern northumbria and the border ridings. It is also certain that some of
these crewmen for various reasons chose to remain and/ or had offspring who
moved about the area.. some may have even encouraged others from back home
to come as well..

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