Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1270058932

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: [DNA] Timeline of the Interesting I2a2b-Isles L161+
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:15:30 -0600

I find the L161+ Isles I2a2b haplogroup one of the more interesting tales in haplogroup I. Back in 2004 all of P37+ (xM26) was lumped together as this "Balkan" haplogroup which sort of balanced out the I1of western/northern Europe. But first it was found there was a strong and extremely distinct clade of "Western" P37+ (xM26) centered in northwest Europe, and somewhat later there was found a complicated British Isles clade of P37+ (xM26) with hardly any continental representation. All this was done prior to discovery of new SNPs to tag these divisions which we now have. Today Dinaric, Western, and Isles major divisions each have SNP tags.

I2a2b-Isles L161+ could be one of the earlier folks to repopulate the British Isles after the LGM. I'll try to lay out the timeline as best estimated with variance and GD measures of haplotype populations, and add some supplementary place-of-origin information. I see 10 or more clades (clusters) of haplotypes in I2a2b-Isles, and have little doubt that someday SNPs will be found to tag the individual clades. But I'll work with the division of I2a2b-Isles into its four main clades --- A,B,C,D. Clade A is a late spin-off from clade B; Clade D is a late spin-off from clade C, as indicated by interclade variances.

My haplotype database counts with number from continent indicated (7 of 55 indicates 7 haplotypes continental of total 55) These haplotypes range all over the lot in number of STRs.

Clade A --- 0 of 48
Clade B --- 17 of 51
Clade C --- 7 of 55
Clade D --- 6 of 68

Note: some of the continental haplotypes have suspiciously British looking surnames.

Timeline of key events from Interclade and Intraclade Variances

13,500 b.p. The two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles separate.
6,000 b.p. Two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2b-Isles-B(&A) and to I2a2b-Isles-C(&D)
5,600 b.p. TMRCA for 17 Continental members of Clade B
4.800 b.p. TMRCA for 34 Isles members of Clade B
3,900 b.p. TMRCA of Clade C
2,500 b.p. TMRCA of Clade D
1,500 b.p. TMRCA of clade A

Continental members I2a2b-Isles (with just one exception from Basque region) are spread in a swath across north German plain from Poland to low countries and France)

My present hunch from all this is that I2a2b-Isles-B L161+ arrived in the British Isles prior to the arrival of the so-called Celtic populations.

See warpedfounderstree at to see the I2a2b tree within the larger context of the whole haplogroup I timeline and phylogeny.

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