GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-06 > 1275809182
From: Sean Silver <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Genetics of Jews
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 03:26:22 -0400
> Sean, your responses have reminded just why I decided to spend my days with my kids and in my garden (when I'm not working, that is), rather than posting to the list.
> If these "we couldn't have possibly admixed with anyone else" ideas came from any other quarter, they would certainly have been deemed racist (or ethno-centric or whatever you want to call it).
> Of course there has been admixture among Ashkenazim and their European neighbors.?A heck of a lot, in fact, over 2500 years. The latest study is just one of many, many such studies that lend support to this.? Does this mean that modern-day Jewish populations have no Israelite ancestry.? Of course not. But why must it always be so black and white?
> I have pondered for a long time why it is SO important to Jewish researchers (like the very ones you mention in your post) to seek evidence of lack of admixture.? Honestly, what is that about?? It is really puzzling, and it certainly has hampered the study of Jewish DNA now for a very, very long time.?
> Thank goodness this study finally came along.? What a breath of fresh air!
> And that Philistine hypothesis?? Of course it is just a hypothesis (my own, in fact).? Why wouldn't it be as plausible as any other?? Do you have some other evidence regarding where the Philistines originated?? I'd like to hear it (honestly).
> The archaeological record is very clear - this population was, without any doubt, subsumed into the Israelite population.? They were not wiped out - if that means they were killed off at least.? They just became something else.?
> If that doesn't fit with the biblical record, I truly am sorry as it appears that makes you uncomfortable, but the evidence is what the evidence is.
> There was also very significant trade between ancient Israel and Cyprus (as well as the Minoan civilization), so there could have been admixture through this route as well.
> Ellen Coffman
I find it beneath you to accuse someone of racism, or even comparing them to be beneath the maturity of children. As a father myself of small children, and someone who considers themselves a moral person, I have tried to maintain the high road. I presented to you facts and have not been derogatory in the slightest. Considering this should be a forum for civil discourse and historical exploration through genetics, I hope you will return the courtesy. I hold no grudge against you, just skepticism regarding your theories.
Rather, if you would take the time to read my post, or have read my various posts in the past, you would have seen one of the very first quotes:
"I have studied this subject for over three years now and currently have 284 members in my project. 116 of those fall within the model of Eastern R1b, either M269+, L23+, P310- or M269+, L23-." The evidence that followed only pertained to them. I just do not know about the rest, though there are a portion that definitively follow the WAMH.
Never once did I claim that my entire project was of an ancient origin, nor that all were not a result of recent admixture. Rather, I have yet to find evidence that disproves an ancient origin for that portion whom I mentioned, roughly 40%. Paul Johnson is a noted British historian and a Roman Catholic (I incorrectly said Peter before). To my knowledge, Michael Hammer is not Jewish either, yet his scrutiny is legendary and it took some real supporting evidence for him to look at my results, yet alone agree that the line was ancient, not of European origin and likely not a recent admixture. It is also not in Bennett Greenspan's interest to be blindly optimistic, considering he has tests for Jewish ancestry centered around Hg J. He also has had to build a reputation of trust and objectivity (in my successfully), considering the amount of Jews that have tested with FTDNA.
To you, I stated that I have not seen any evidence that the Philistines were R1b instead of J. Likewise, I said I referred to the bible as a historical document. I did not say it was THE historical document. However, I have not found any existing primary documents, and only cursory ones from Egyptian origin.
I am not looking for ancient origin at every turn, but I am also not looking to discover that the entire world is Jewish either. Quite simply, I have approached this research initially with skepticism to find out where I, and those whom I may or may not share a somewhat-recent common ancestor with, came from. It was to my surprise, along with many respected individuals in the community, that we found the commonality older and older, as well as more elusive without any population matches.
If you have archaeological evidence of Philistine admixture, I would be interested to see it. I have not seen any via Google searches this evening. However, even if there were admixture, they were only a portion of those tribes that became a part of the Israelites. Furthermore, the greatest genetic variance we have seen from our Eastern R1b group does not stem from Macedonia, but rather the Middle East (as I have noted).
Really people, there's no need to jump on others or reduce ourselves to name-calling, nor inflate our egos at others' expense. I highly doubt it we'd do it to each others' face, if we didn't have this electronic medium.