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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Genetics of Jews
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:48:59 -0600
References: <372553.49935.qm@web52105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen Levy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Genetics of Jews


First, a reply to Ken's work on Jewish I haplotypes. I found this
information really interesting. Do you have any theories on the origins of
these various founders? Did these all originate in the Balkans? These
various sub-clades - where is their greatest concentration in Europe?

[[ I don't see the Balkans as place of origination of any of these Jewish
clusters in Y Haplogroup I.
Remember: all three of these clusters are extremely young --- historical
era.

The I2a2a-Dinaric cluster is spread all over Ukraine, Poland, Belarus,
Russia region.
Most straightforward interpretation of the founder was a Gentile convert
from that general region where I2a2a is common. The 700 year TMRCA estimate
carries with it a healthy statistical confidence interval. Incidently, I
don't put Balkans as place of origin of I2a2a-Dinaric because its frequency
today reaches its peak in Croatia/Bosnia. I think place of origin of
I2a2a-Dinaric about 2500 years ago is still an open question, although I
lean toward more northerly eastern Europe.

The P78+ haplogroup as a whole is somewhat shifted to the middle Danube
basin south of the Carpathians and to Germanic regions and its share of
British Isles members. But the Jewish cluster is strongly Ukraine, but
Crimea region. Members not from Ukraine have a more southerly Eastern
Europe place of origin. It's also about a 700 year old cluster. My default
interpretation would be a founder who was a Gentile convert from Germanic
lands or middle Danube.

The I2* cluster is an enigma because overall I2* is probably the strangest
haplogroup in Hg I. I2* is generally spread across every quarter of Europe
except noticeably light in Scandinavia. I2* has a strong and much older
Armenian/Turkish presence and shows up elsewhere in the MidEast/Levant.
Because of the bias of our good databases, however, an objective statement
of its relative strength across this vast span of territory can not yet be
made. But no other subhaplogroup of I is so lacking in geographical
concentration. And I2* is old in the time back to its TMRCA --- only being
challenged as oldest Hg I clade by I2a1 M26+ "Sardinian".
The Jewish cluster is centered in Ukraine but spillover in the neighboring
lands. This cluster is extremely young; I think 450 years was the TMRCA
estimate.

Whether the historical I2* founder was a Jew who had carried that y line
since the Roman empire times or a convert from someone of this presently
very diffuse background of I2* throughout Europe, I have no idea.

I am wondering if the R1a researchers are finding these very young,
explosive growth clades of Jewish y haplotypes? I would think they should,
given these Hg I clades and R1a being the dominant indigenous haplogroup
where the last centers of European Jewish populations were. KN ]]




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