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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-07 > 1280377035


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] U106 in North Germany
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:17:15 -0600
References: <BF26BF957C31431AB7165F44FEAF929C@RichardNW>,<SNT131-ds121B3271BF31A31AE9EE74BCA60@phx.gbl>,<446F393937894211AD2C8D005ADC222E@RichardNW><SNT131-w503A8A5BF8F393B31BBEC3BCA60@phx.gbl><23CB83B425794127B8EBF20D3DC86EAE@RichardNW><SNT131-ds4891D9C13BD9FC03C2944BCA90@phx.gbl>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Gull" <>


> Personal opinion: we were encouraged to believe that U106 is uniquely
> Germanic because (a) years ago it was labelled "Frisian" from ..........

I think you increasingly mythologize the history of this broad subject each
time you comment on it.

U106 aka S21 was discovered some time AFTER the first evidence of a cline
concerning DYS 390/391 = 23/11 R1b.... was found in western Europe which
peaked in the general Netherlands, NW Germany, Denmark region ("Greater
Frisia" to give it the irritating nickname, although I see some vintage 2004
messages I sent out on this subject using the name "AngloSaxony" as well.)
The frequency cline for this variety of western R1b... was calibrated
relative to the 24/11 and 24/10 frequencies of R1b....... As far as I know,
the increased data of today does not change much these frequency shares as
we move from region to region in western europe. I have the original
frequencies obtained by geographically clustering the yhrd haplotypes. Then
additional STRs were found which correlated with the 23/11 motif, so we got
bonified clades. It was only after that that the snp U106/S21 was
discovered and found to correlate with the 23/11 cline. The snp had nothing
to do with the original observation of the cline which was geographical in
nature. Talking in terms of the frequencies of this tri-partition of
R1b..., the middle Rhine looks like a mixing zone for the 24/11 and 23/11
types of R1b.....

A decent case can be made, I believe, that the same peoples that spread
I1-AS (or at least some of the major clades of I1-AS) in Europe also spread
U106/S21. What language they spoke is difficult to say; the initial spread
may have begun before the IE languages came to that part of Europe ---
although we know the peoples of this region of Europe were on the move even
in Roman times. When the Celtic language went extinct in the upper Danube
region I don't know. What's the conventional wisdom on that?

If you look at the ydna makeup of northern Germany versus southern Germany
today, significant differences exist. I suspect that goes along with an
expansion of the peoples of the territory today called northern Germany into
the territory of today's southern Germany, but diluted in the latter region
by the indigenous peoples who were not eliminated but simply mixed with the
newcomers.



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