Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-08 > 1281374930

From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] SRY10831 at the root ?
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:28:50 -0400
References: <14652681.68880.1281112386993.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j16><007301cb35b9$87f2cf90$48692dae@Ken1> <004a01cb374a$5dd88690$198993b0$><005e01cb37c4$34d2a990$48692dae@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <005e01cb37c4$34d2a990$48692dae@Ken1>

I don't think it's worth arguing whether or not we will ever know the order of
every SNP mutation because that wasn't the point. The point was that the
nodes/branches of the Y-DNA haplotree aren't independent of mutations, they
represent the mutations. "Demographics" have nothing to do with it, nor does
the ratio of SNP mutations to STR mutations have anything to do with it -- nor
is there any reason to believe that ratio would change over time. What would be
the biological basis for such a change?

If there are 2500 SNPs separating you from genetic Adam, then there are 2500
nodes/branches on the cladogram. All of their locations have simply yet to be
determined. You are apparently assuming most never will be, and I will grant
that probably not all will be, but I think we will eventually get much closer to
identifying and locating most of them. No point in debating that one because
it's a difference of opinion.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:genealogy-dna-
> ] On Behalf Of Ken Nordtvedt
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:10 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] SRY10831 at the root ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <>
> the mutation occurred (or trait appeared)
> > at the node or on the branch, /bar3d.jpg
> Someday,
> > when the phylogenetic order of all the SNPs is known, every single SNP
> > will be a
> > node.
> [[ For the y tree you are way off the mark. The ratio of snp or str
> mutations that happen on the branches / on the node is very great in the y
> tree, especially early in the tree (before agriculture). Frequency of nodes
> is controlled by demographics which is independent of mutation rates of y
> snps and strs.
> Secondly, vast majority of snps are and will remain redundant, all falling
> on the same branch segment of the tree
> While I may have about 2500 snps separating me from genetic Adam, my
> ancestral line (and same for any other male today) probably has only about
> 50 or less nodes along it. ]]
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