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From: Aaron Salles Torres <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Frames and Hamiltons
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:06:23 -0700 (PDT)


Here are a few questions that I have previously brought up regarding the Frame/Hamilton similarities and some of the conclusions reached so far:

1- Groups B and C Hamilton seem to have closer genetic relations to old lines from Continental Europe;

2- The fact that the so-called group A is relatively genetically isolated leads one to believe that they have been in Britain for a long time, before the Norman invasion. As we know, many lines of Norman invaders became aristocracy in Britain. Claiming the clan Hamilton is most fairly represented by Group A goes against historical evidence and suggests Walter Fitzgilbert de Hamilton's line really did not come from the Norman Invasion of 1066. Connection between Group A and the Robertsons would also make one wonder.

3- Conclusions so far seem to be based on the fact that one single person tested from Group A "provenly" descends from Sir John of Preston. As opposed to Group B, who descends from Sir James Hamilton. The fact that Preston is genealogically closer to Walter fitz Gilbert of Cadzow does not mean he could not have descended from a bastard son. I have worked with genealogies with similar cases where one assumed bastard son was in fact legitimate and vice-versa.

I have investigated three people tested by FT DNA who closely match the Hamilton Group C and Frame Group B. Two of them carry the name Torres, another carries the name Gonzalez. One Torres is in fact a Gonzalez in his direct male line (two name changes occurred in Puerto Rico in the XIX century). The other Torres line comes from Northern Portugal (Gilmonde, in Barcelos, Braga). That line also suffered a name change - I have traced it back to the late 1500's. The earliest records of the town also show that its most abundant surname was Gonçalves (Portuguese for Gonzalez) during that same period. So, these are actually two Gonzalez lines that can be traced back to Spain and one Gonçalves line from Northern Portugal (the closest match being between the individual from Puerto Rico and the one whose line comes from Northern Portugal).

I am now testing an additional individual from the Northern Portugal line and intend to test a few more Gonçalves.

Just a few observations.
Aaron Torres

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 05:50:23 -0400
From: Gordon Hamilton <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Frames and Hamiltons
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Given the many recent posts concerning Hamilton DNA results, it may
be helpful for me to articulate some of the main findings and
conclusions we have derived from our Hamilton DNA project.

However, the fact
that the Frame Group A profile is very similar to the Hamilton Group
C profile <
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/IGrps.html >
suggests that these families were at one time quite closely involved
with each other. Our Hamilton Group C is a relatively small group
with only 8 current members out of a total of about 375 total
participants in our DNA project. Julie Frame Falk has previously
pointed out the similarities of the Hamilton Group C, Frame Group B,
Scruggs and Torres profiles.







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