GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-12 > 1291543834
From: "Lancaster-Boon" <>
Subject: [DNA] R1b and R1a fate
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 11:10:34 +0100
>> You are right that the Indic branch need not have entered the steppes.
> And, I repeat that there is no evidence for the presence of Indo-Iranian
in the steppes, only of Iranian.
Iranian is a branch of Indo-Iranian, but I get what you mean. You are saying
that Tocharian could have got to its home some other way. Maybe. You are
saying the Finno-Ugric-PIE connection which linguists see is explained how?
> The steppe is not the only way you can get to Xinjiang, I'm sure you
are aware of that. So, no need to invoke "matter transporters".
> I always like to give the example of Hungarian when the "Tocharian issue"
I am not sure this example supports your proposal. The language of the
Hungarians moved in steps. The intermediate steps disappeared later because
other languages replaced them in those placed.
> the point is that the origin of the proto-language is where the greatest
linguistic diversity is to be found,
Not necessarily. Obviously reduction in diversity happens a lot, completely
misleading anyone who wants to use diversity as a measurement. Unlike with Y
haplogroups there is no trace of the old diversity at any frequency because
languages are shared by their very nature and purpose, and when a new one
becomes dominant the old ones tend to be dropped entirely.
> The steppes are like the backyard of the Indo-European world where one of
the kids of the Indo-European family (the Iranian) was found running, the
house is in Europe and Anatolia where most of his other brethren were.
No need to disagree with that and drop more orthdox theories. Of all the
many theories about the location(s) of PIE, most are not far from the
Balkans, Anatolia, and the Caucasus. This includes most versions of the
"Steppe theory". What's more, your wanting to say that there was only one
branch that dispersed over the steppes is a bit stretched. Balto-Slavic must
is found on the steppes today but also originated at least on the edge of
the steppes if not on them, and (as with Tocharian) between Balto Slavic and
most of its relatives there are steppes.
> Baltic, like Germanic and Slavic are likely ultimately descended from the
Corded Ware culture of Central Europe.
I need to maybe check my memory but isn't Corded Ware thought to have
origins to the east of its range?
>> And we know Iranian must have over-run a lot of over languages, because
like you said there is "no real reason to ascribe a remarkable linguistic
> False analogy, as Europe had long-established dense agricultural
populations whereas the steppes didn't. It's quite possible that Iranian
replaced no other language in the steppe, and, if it did, there is no real
reason to think that these languages were "Tocharian"-related.
Once again, please do not forget Finno Ugric.