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From: SVass <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 12:51:03 -0800
References: <mailman.1544.1291749322.2081.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1544.1291749322.2081.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>


I've been following this discussion in order to see if any actual new measured/calculated data would be cited and I decided to toss this into the pond.

Either cattle came by themselves to Iberia or there were two routes into Europe or they are sexually faithful to their own breed.

So Figure 2 of "The origin of European cattle: Evidence from modern and ancient DNA" by Pereira et alii in 2006 is erroneous and the following paragraph from
"Resolving the evolution of extant and extinct ruminants with high-throughput phylogenomics" by Decker et alii in 2009 is also wrong:

"Fig. 3 also reveals the biogeographical history of European cattle, which is based upon migrations out of the
Fertile Crescent, with domesticated cattle moved sequentially through Turkey, the Balkans, and Italy (27), then radiating
through Central Europe and France, and finally into the British Isles (Figs. 2 and 3 and Figs. S2 and S3). These data also support
a second route to the Iberian peninsula by sea from Africa or the Fertile Crescent leading to subsequent admixture with European
cattle (4), as the Spanish breeds found in the New World are basal to German and French breeds (Figs. 2 and 3)."

There is also another new paper claiming that H1 (mtDNA) went from Iberia to North Africa at about the same time.

Finally, I offer this insight from today's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/science/07first.html?ref=science
"I met a man with seven wives. ...”
..That very British-sounding St. Ives conundrum (the one where the seven wives each have seven sacks containing seven cats who each have seven kits, and you have to figure out how many are going to St. Ives) has a decidedly archaic antecedent.

An Egyptian document more than 3,600 years old, the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, contains a puzzle of sevens that bears an uncanny likeness to the St. Ives riddle. It has mice and barley, not wives and sacks, but the gist is similar. Seven houses have seven cats that each eat seven mice that each eat seven grains of barley. Each barley grain would have produced seven hekat of grain. (A hekat was a unit of volume, roughly 1.3 gallons.)
The goal: to determine how many things are described. The answer: 19,607.
The Rhind papyrus, which dates to 1650 B.C.,"

Ergo, Tut was an R1b and his descendant wrote the English version and R1b came from Egypt.
cheers,
sam vass

On Dec 7, 2010, Lancaster-Boon wrote:
....;.
> "All these subclades have entered Europe from at least two directions - via Asia Minor to "Italy" and the Balkans (around 4500 ybp), and across North
> Africa and up to Iberia (4800 ybp). L23 did not survive in Iberia, and only little of L11 left there, however, the last one had managed to spin off U106
> and P312 in Iberia. They moved up North as Bell Beakers."
>
> Now, as far as I know, and also looking at your OWN explanations, there is absolutely no genetic, linguistic, or archaeological data which supports
> this African migration?
> ....
> I guess I may ask for some beef concerning this North African theory? :)



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