Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-12 > 1291824502

From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:08:22 -0500
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

I have an expectation that people will say what they mean and mean
what they say. And I don't think that expectation is an unreasonable

If you don't think R-M269 expanded into Europe from Iberia, then you
probably shouldn't have said that you did. If your position now is
that it is really on R-L11 that you were referring to, then I say you
are trying to duck the criticism because you and I both know that 98%
of R-M269 in Europe is R-L11.

In any event, that dickering is beside the point: your argument was
that R-L11 spread into Europe from Iberia, and your justification for
that argument was that the frequency of R-P312* is highest there.
While your data may be sound, your analysis is faulty: the direction
of spread is not best inferred from the frequency gradient but,
rather, from the variance gradient.

If you want variance data, I can show it to you (though, frankly, it
is all public anyway just like the frequency data). There seems to be
little point to doing that, though, until you realize that your
argument is LOGICALLY flawed (as Andrew has already pointed out, as
you know). I can show that the variance gradient for R-M269 flows
clearly from SW Asia (oldest) towards NW Europe (youngest), not from
SW Europe to NE Europe. That is data, but spelling it out is moot as
long as you obstinately duck the discussion.

The only way you can satisfy ME that your argument is not flawed is to
demonstrate that your frequency data points toward your conclusion.
As it stands, your argument (R-P312* is most frequent in Iberia, ergo
R-L11 entered Europe from Iberia) is a non sequitur.


On Dec 8, 2010, at 7:47 AM, wrote:

> I stay with my earlier comment "First, the statement above is
> totally wrong", and I stay with my comment "L11 likely arose between
> Mesopotamia and Iberia, and moved North (from Iberia) to the
> continental Europe as the Bell Beakers along with its "sons" P312
> and U106".

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