Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-12 > 1292189607

From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 13:33:27 -0800 (PST)

Let me clarify.

It is the number of STRs (or, if you will, the summed mutation rate of such
STRs) that is too small.

In other words, accurate phylogenies of R-L11 and subclades cannot be drawn
using only 67 or 100 STRs. I am fully aware that this fact does not prevent
some people (including you) from producing such trees, but they are still
worthless regardless of the amount of effort put into them.


----- Original Message ----
From: Anatole Klyosov <>
Cc: Anatole Klyosov <>
Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 4:26:51 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?

> From: Vincent Vizachero <>
> That's true only if the trees you can draw are accurate.

My comment:


This is the most general and elusive statement one could possibly make in
ANY field of science, engineering, and common life.

>Based on the small number of STRs available to us today, such trees are not
>at all
> accurate within R1b1b2...

Not true. Are 464 of 67-marker haplotypes for R-P312 a small number for you?
Are 708 of 67-marker haplotypes for U106 a small number for you?

> I maintain that STR-based phylogenies CAN be useful and accurate, but
> they are not always
> thus. R-P312 is one place where they are not.

The first sentence is generally true, the second is not true.

Anatole Klyosov

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