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From: "Anatole Klyosov" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:51:58 -0500
References: <mailman.2473.1292187996.2081.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>


> From: Mike W <>
> ...I did not understand the validity of calculating the TMRCA of P312*
> since it is a paragroup rather than a clade.
>
> Are you saying we need to draw a tree of P312* and try to ascertain
> the differences between the clusters and non-clustered people? I
> notice Anatole Klyosov has a step in his analysis where he creates a
> circular diagram to assess if there is a fit (my understanding of the
> process.) Have you made such an assessment of P312* haplotypes? If
> so, please us know what you determined.
>
> The reason ask about the usefulness of P312*'s TMRCA is that the
> geographical spread is so far-flung and uneven. There is a lot of
> P312* in Iberia, but also it has a clear presence in Scandinavia and
> Germany... and it shows up as far as east as Turkey. Do you have any
> analysis of this distribution?

My response:

Dear Mike,

There is an easy way to settle this "problem" and to answer your question.
Send me a list of P312* (67 marker haplotypes, in Excel format) as complete
as possible, and I will send you a haplotype tree along with calculations of
base haplotypes and timespans to their common ancestors. I almost guarantee
you that the tree will be smooth and symmetrical, pointing at just one
common ancestor who lived around 3700-3900 years before present. This will
be for Scandinavian, Turkish and German P312* haplotypes, their ancesors
all came from the same place. That place is the most likely Iberia, however,
this is a matter of interpretations. I do believe that I have solved this
problem couple of years back, and showed the data here not once but many
times. However, on some mysterious reason folks here continue to pronounce
words and words and show practically no data. I understand, people are
conservative, they have their fables and preconceived knowledge, however, I
am patient. So, let's make one more move in that direction. Says a Chinese
(and a Russian) proverb: "drops of water wears holes in stone". And you will
share data and conclusions here. Agreed?

Regards,

Anatole Klyosov

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