Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-12 > 1292191607

From: Gareth Henson <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 22:06:47 +0000
References: <>,<509DA485D5984C82BCFDBF7A5A2A8EE3@anatoldesktop>
In-Reply-To: <509DA485D5984C82BCFDBF7A5A2A8EE3@anatoldesktop>

Mike & Anatole

I'll add my own challenge.

Mike - create a set of P312* haplotypes as requested by Anatole, then add in a random selection of R-SRY2627+ haplotypes, but don't identify which ones these are. Include some with DYS490 = 10 and some DYS490 = 12.
Anatole - create your haplotype tree as promised. Assuming all those with DYS490 = 10 are R-SRY2627+, predict which of those with DYS490 = 12 are also R-SRY2627+.
If there is a prediction method that works, Didier and I would love to hear about it.


> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:51:58 -0500
> CC:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] NW European R1b from Iberia?
> > From: Mike W <>
> > ...I did not understand the validity of calculating the TMRCA of P312*
> > since it is a paragroup rather than a clade.
> >
> > Are you saying we need to draw a tree of P312* and try to ascertain
> > the differences between the clusters and non-clustered people? I
> > notice Anatole Klyosov has a step in his analysis where he creates a
> > circular diagram to assess if there is a fit (my understanding of the
> > process.) Have you made such an assessment of P312* haplotypes? If
> > so, please us know what you determined.
> >
> > The reason ask about the usefulness of P312*'s TMRCA is that the
> > geographical spread is so far-flung and uneven. There is a lot of
> > P312* in Iberia, but also it has a clear presence in Scandinavia and
> > Germany... and it shows up as far as east as Turkey. Do you have any
> > analysis of this distribution?
> My response:
> Dear Mike,
> There is an easy way to settle this "problem" and to answer your question.
> Send me a list of P312* (67 marker haplotypes, in Excel format) as complete
> as possible, and I will send you a haplotype tree along with calculations of
> base haplotypes and timespans to their common ancestors. I almost guarantee
> you that the tree will be smooth and symmetrical, pointing at just one
> common ancestor who lived around 3700-3900 years before present. This will
> be for Scandinavian, Turkish and German P312* haplotypes, their ancesors
> all came from the same place. That place is the most likely Iberia, however,
> this is a matter of interpretations. I do believe that I have solved this
> problem couple of years back, and showed the data here not once but many
> times. However, on some mysterious reason folks here continue to pronounce
> words and words and show practically no data. I understand, people are
> conservative, they have their fables and preconceived knowledge, however, I
> am patient. So, let's make one more move in that direction. Says a Chinese
> (and a Russian) proverb: "drops of water wears holes in stone". And you will
> share data and conclusions here. Agreed?
> Regards,
> Anatole Klyosov

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