Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-12 > 1293746912

From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The death of paragroups
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 17:08:32 -0500
References: <> <000501cba78a$0850ce70$c2482dae@Ken1> <> <><> <003901cba846$c3a30910$4ae91b30$><00f101cba864$13034b10$c2482dae@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <00f101cba864$13034b10$c2482dae@Ken1>

You are assuming that the man with the ancestral allele was the last of his
line, which is highly unlikely. He probably had hundreds of cousins with the
ancestral allele, some of whom have living descendants, even if none of the
derived SNP carrier had any surviving brothers. But even if every line
containing the ancestral allele died out, the appearance of the SNP is still a
bifurcation in the cladogram, in the same way that Haplogroup I is a clade, even
though no one who is I* appears to still be living.

_______________________Ancestral, Haplogroup I* (extinct)
|__________________Derived, Haplogroup I1
|__________________Derived, Haplogroup I2

Even if the Hg I* clade is extinct, it is still the ancestral clade and has a
place in the cladogram.

The SNP mutation *is* the fork in the haplotree, it has absolutely nothing to do
with demographics.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:genealogy-dna-
> ] On Behalf Of Ken Nordtvedt
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:57 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] The death of paragroups
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <>
> > The appearance of a new SNP creates a bifurcation,
> > a fork in the road, where one line continues
> > without the new allele and one line has the new allele.
> [[ The above is why communication with you is so difficult; the above is
> pure nonsense. Most snps happen in son's who have no brothers with
> surviving lines. A bifurcation after most snps happens some generations
> later on a branch line of descent when the demographics (births and deaths
> and reproductions) so wills it --- not any preceding snps, discovered or
> undiscovered yet. ]]

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