GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-05 > 1305291623
From: Wayne Kauffman <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Outliers - where's the love?
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:00:23 -0700 (PDT)
Going with 23andMe is the most reasonable path forward right now as you will get
a really good estimate for both your paternal and maternal haplogroups.
If it looks like you fall into a paternal haplogroup between M269 and L51 it is
probably best to wait for a deep clade test. There are a number of new SNPs,
including L277+ and L405- under L23, which will finally start to fracture this
old R1b area of the haplogroup tree. We are also waiting on several WTY results
to see if additional defining SNPs are discovered. Note that the 23andMe results
have been used to identify a number of these new SNPs in the M269 region over
the last year so your 23andMe results could provide more detail than the current
deep clade test.
With your DYS393 (11) value you should monitor the ht35 project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx . This could be one of
your future project homes.
From: Christopher Pommier <>
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 11:14:52 PM
Subject: [DNA] Outliers - where's the love?
I'm new to this list, and have been searching around the lists and forums trying
to make sense of my yDNA results. I tested to 37 markers at FTDNA. I've uploaded
my results to all the databases I could find and have no close matches. FTDNA
couldn't predict my haplogroup, so they performed the backbone SNP test and it
came back M269+. I have not ordered the deep clade test yet. I decided to try
23andme, and I only have so much disposable income.
I would be most grateful for more learned minds then mine to examine my
haplotype and let me know what they think. Find me on ySearch.org with ID 3TQJG.
So, at this point I'm proudly accepting my R1b outlier status and I have a few
questions for the list.
1) Is there any forum or group for R1b outliers?
2) After some research I would like to propose the following 4 broad categories
that an outlier may fall into:
- "stranger" -- I came across this theory at Dienekes' blog. The idea being that
the outlier's line represents a traveler from a distant land unrelated to the
surrounding indigenous folk with whom he settled and into whose society he
- "relic" -- Also from Dienekes' blog. The outlier is representative of an old
branch that somehow survived in an unbroken and only moderately successful line
while the more successful lines continued to multiply and further branch.
- "vanguard" -- Thought of this one myself, then saw someone mention it in one
of my searches. The outlier isn't really an outlier, but just the first to be
tested of a much larger population with whom he has many matches. A
yet-to-be-discovered clade, perhaps? Or at least: cluster?
- recLOH -- Short for recombinational loss of heterozygosity. From what I
understand, at its most basic, a recLOH event is a single event that causes
several mutations which sometimes results in a jump of several "steps." Again,
the outlier may not really be an outlier, but may simply be misunderstood. Or in
this instance: miscalculated. The databases don't really seem to be set up to
take into account this type of event. They appear to calculate genetic distance
as though the allele values were just a string of numbers, each a discreet
mutational instance (analog), rather than blocks of information that may
experience a mutation together and may change by several steps at once
So, more questions:
3) Due to my low value at DYS393 (11), someone on another list suggested I may
fall into the "relic" category. Thoughts?
4) However, due to my homozygous values on YCAII which puts me 4 steps from the
modal, the same person suggested that my line may have experienced a recLOH
event. Thoughts? If this is so, what other markers may have been affected?
I suppose there's no reason that the categories above would be mutually
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|Re: [DNA] Outliers - where's the love? by Wayne Kauffman <>|