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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-07 > 1310225029


From: Stephen Forrest <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Markers that determine someone is Irish and Scottish
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 11:23:49 -0400
References: <CANvDYaVeq4nyog2+YsdgP0bGooczJj8yi1v5yzn0mpYbMz5HsA@mail.gmail.com><009201cc3e05$4c0d2430$e4276c90$@com><CAFDEzRC3fjMYF05Tzb5HjTztUUieA3BfZXwq2vSuM_EkwLmimQ@mail.gmail.com><CANvDYaWGUK7F3Zhc__Pr7RLfb3hz4=hJVdOdeEvhU4QaO0pkrA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CANvDYaWGUK7F3Zhc__Pr7RLfb3hz4=hJVdOdeEvhU4QaO0pkrA@mail.gmail.com>


Hi Karen,

In general human populations, especially neighbouring populations, don't
offer nice clear distinctions to the extent we might like. There are surely
men alive today whose male lines crossed the Irish sea 4 or more times in
the last 1000 years; what date to we pick to decide whether they're Scottish
or Irish?

It is possible to answer the question if you have a close match to a group
which you can reasonably expect to have been localised someplace in Ireland
or Scotland for quite a while.

In my case, my male line on paper goes back 200 years and is all in Ireland,
but I have a lot of close Y-DNA matches all from a specific area in the
Scottish Lowlands and the shared surname is known to be linked with that
area. So I am able to say with confidence that my "Irish" paternal line
must be Scottish. This isn't because my DNA is somehow generally
'Scottish', but because of where my matches are and I what I can expect
about their history.

Hope that helps,

Steve

On 9 July 2011 05:33, Karen Hodges <> wrote:

> Hi Tyrone
>
> Thank you.
>
> Someone recently told me that their y dna test has link them to
> being Scottish. I am waiting for them to get back to me with what it was.
> Their paper trial has taken them back to the mid 1700's still in England.
>
> My Mother's paternal line was Grant and the paper trial is back to the
> late
> 1600's in England, it may go back further. Oral history says our ancestors
> came from Stirling Scotland. If the paper trial runs out in England could
> dna testing prove that the family were once from Scotland?
>
> Karen
>
> On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Tyrone Bowes Ph.D. <
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Karen,
> >
> > I lived in Scotland for 10 years, married a Chinese Scot and besides this
> > the Scots are a very divergent bunch. Probably the only thing that unites
> > them is their dislike of the English ;-).
> > In the Highlands and Islands including the Western Isles and southwest
> > Scotland many would be descendants of Gaels from the North of Ireland.
> > There
> > is also a heavy Norman influence throughout, then theres the Vikings who
> > settled in the East and Orkney but also in the Western Isles (these in
> turn
> > gave rise to Mercenary Scots known as Gallowglass). Then theres the Picts
> > who appear to have been absorbed into Gaelic culture and disappeared as
> > such. Then there is also the 1/5 of the population in Scotland at present
> > who are descendant from Irish emigrants from the 18th and 19th century
> > In Ireland there appear to be 2 groups, Northern Niall of the Nine
> hostages
> > group, and the Southern Irish. It may be that the Northern Irish group
> was
> > the 'Scotti' that settled in Scotland. But to confuse matters further,
> one
> > of my members of the Southern Irish group (Donohoe) had matches to
> Scottish
> > Robertsons.
> >
> > So markers to tell them apart I think is unlikely.
> >
> > Tyrone
>
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