Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-07 > 1311599453

From: Mike W <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b-P312-L617 subclade 500 to 900 years old minimum andgrowing..
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:10:53 -0500
References: <61191372BFCF4460AA6034D5B16D7F9B@JohnPC><F77E05B4DD00473EB1F49B70DE0AA68D@JohnPC><6030B42DF7B6485BB2F1017C109DE420@JohnPC>
In-Reply-To: <6030B42DF7B6485BB2F1017C109DE420@JohnPC>


I'm not sure which the two Marsh's are that are L617+. Please have them
both join the R-P312 project. We can get more interest for these SNP's there
if you think they are wide spread.,atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx

Mike W

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Alister John Marsh <>
Date: Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b-P312-L617 subclade 500 to 900 years old minimum and


I have a little more progress to report on my adventure with the new SNP
L617 which is located in R1b-P312* group.

The SNP was first found in my WTY, and not reported in anyone else in WTY
tests, or in the 1000 genomes project.

I am still working at tracking it to it's point of origin, but I have made
some progress.

I am a Marsh, from a family in Cambridgeshire England at least 500 years
ago. My first step was to test a Marsh presumed to related to me around 300
to 500 years ago. He turned out to be L617+. So L617 is presumably 300 to
500 years old or older.

My next step was to test a person of a different surname thought to relate
to me between 500 and 900 years ago on the male line. He has come up L617+
also. From memory, he is 7 mutations difference to me on 67 markers, and
matches on quite a few distinctive markers in my Marsh family. He has a
different surname from me, and my supposition is from a number of items of
evidence, that he may descend on the male line from a Tyndall family,
possibly from a Baron de Tyndall living at Tyne Dale, Northumberland in the
1100s, (possible Baron Robert de Tyndall, who may be the son of an earlier
Baron Adam de Tyndall). However, 900 year old pedigrees have a lot of scope
for errors, and I am trying to get further Tyndalls DNA tested to verify
that the line to Barons de Tyndall are reasonably certain. But for the mean
time, a good working hypothesis is that the Tyndall line tested, and
possibly my Marsh line, descend from the Barons de Tyndall.

This now means that at a minimum, the SNP L617+ is between 500 and 900 years
old. My personal suspicion is that the Tyndall Marsh relationship might be
about 800 years ago. I think I am now justified in claiming this L617
group is a significant subclade of R1b- P312*, and could justify being
formally added to the R1b haplotree. I think it now is moving out of the
"private" or "family" SNP category.

I am in the process of now arranging tests for L617 for a Redmond and a

The Redmond is clearly more distantly related to me than Tyndalls, and a
guess would be relationship around 1500 years ago. I share some distinctive
marker groups with Redmonds, but also there are some significant haplotype
differences which imply relationship is a reasonable way back. A Tracy and
an Artis (Artois?) family also have some similarity to Redmond haplotypes.
One of the Tracys from this cluster is about 22 mutation steps difference
from me on 67 markers.

The Perry is 12 mutations from me on 67 markers, and does share a few
"family distinctive" markers with me, but does not share the groups of more
distinctive markers that the Tyndall and Redmond line share with me. Other
Perrys from this Perry cluster have as I recall 15 or mutations difference
to me on 67 markers. My guess is that the Perry might relate to me around
2,000 years ago.

WORK IN PROGRESS: Clearly I need Redmond and Perry results to establish
that L617 is more than 900 years old, so it is still work in progress.
There is a hint that de Redmonds, de Tracys, Artis, and de Tyndall lines may
be of Norman origin, possibly from Denmark earlier than that. These lines
have speculated trees going back more than 1000 years, but I think the trees
need to be approached with caution, as there seem some inconsistencies more
than 1000 years back, ie different genealogist assigning different fathers
to some of the individuals. I will keep the list updated as things


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