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Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:12:45 -0400


-Mike,

I answering on this message but I saw the 2 other replies from John German and you didn't understand (below) that my point is closer to John's questioning. I'll try to be more explicit and I hope we can get some more people in this discussion.

I am not saying, for example, that the origin of P312 could be in Ireland where the frequency is higher. I was pointing a rather "pure" P312 versus U106 split and this split, by itself, is a point to take into consideration if you consider R-L11, U106 and P312 going on the same path in the "conquest" of western Europe. What chances to get such a (geographical) split in a mixed population ? Any other example ?

The 2 separate path that I have been proposing (P312 south, U106 north) can be with an early origin of P312 in the Balkans if the spread was fast to the west and close to the P312 origin.

Didier
> Your title is about R-L11 but your post is mainly about R-P312 ; nothing
> wrong with it but I'll restrict myself to R-P312 in this answer.
>
> [[I'm up to date with P312 data but several months behind on U106. However,
> they are closely related to each other along with R-L11* in the R-L11 family
> and must be considered in context. I hope we can get some perspectives from
> the U106 team. M.W.]]
>
> .... Z196 was found among the 1000 genomes project but this project (as far
> as I could see) didn't include very many samples from East Europe.
>
> [[You are right. The good news is our consumer DNA projects do have some
> coverage of East/Central Europe. In just a couple of months of Z196 testing
> we have found Z196 in Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Rep., as well as
> Benelux, Norway, Sweden, Germany, England, Ireland, France, and of course
> Iberia. M.W.]]
>
> The higher variance area is broad, encopassing most of eastern Europe, not
> really a "place of origin"...
>
> [[I don't know the place of origin but I think the direction of movement is
> starting to reveal itself. The genetic data findings must be reconciled with
> historical, archeological and linguistic data. M.W.]]
>
> .... I don't see very well how U106 and P312 could arise together at the
> same place and still end up with some rather differenciated pattern like
> U106 very strong in Holland and P312 very strong in Ireland with almost no
> U106 . That would require a surprising segragation among people with the
> same R-L11 origin....
>
> [[Perhaps this is an argument over the usefulness of variance versus
> frequency in determining direction of expansion or migration. I clearly
> don't advocate P312 emanating out of Ireland. I think Ireland was more of a
> destination/pooling point with its very high frequency, yet low variance.
>
> The reasons I think U106 and P312 and their R-L11* brothers must originate
> from the same general area (I'm not pinpointing anything):
> 1. U106 and P312 are immediately downstream of R-L11
> http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
> 2. U106, P312 and R-L11 itself all come out with TMRCA's close to each
> other.
> 3. The modal haplotypes for U106, P312 and R-L11 itself are close to each
> other.
>
> Since the timing is close, the geographic spread between their origins
> shouldn't be too great. Granted, there is some isolation of R-L11 subclades
> by geography... so those geographies with the low R-L11 subclade diversity
> are probably destinations.There are some areas of with greater subclade and
> STR diversity than others. It looks like the general areas east of Germany
> are in that category. M.W.]]
>

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