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From: Mike W <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:02:17 -0500
References: <N1-Ila2ayIHJ0@Safe-mail.net>
In-Reply-To: <N1-Ila2ayIHJ0@Safe-mail.net>


Didier,

I didn't mean to imply that P312 and U106 had the exact same point of
origin, but I just think the distance between their launch points couldn't
be too great since they have about the same TMRCA as each other and as their
common parent, the R-L11 MRCA. Also their modal haplotypes differ little. If
one of us was tracking people in an DNA project that had a GD of only two
or three from ourselves across 67 markers, at least I'd be pretty excited
about it. We could be talking about the last 200 years or so. This is the
situation with R-U106, R-P312 and R-L11*.

I agree that P312 and U106 had different migration/expansion paths, although
I'm not sure either's was pure. There was likely some other haplogroups
mixed including a little bit of P312 going with some of the U106 groups or
vica versa. I'm hesitant to use the word "pure" but if there was any
extremely high frequency movement, it would be P312's moves to the west, not
necessarily U106's expansion(s.) I'll dig up up some information on what I
mean.

Why do you propose an early origin for P312 origin in the Balkans? I
understand there were a number cultural/people expansions that emanated from
SE Europe but I can't find genetic evidence of P312 being south of the Lower
Danube valley. In other words, I don't see high variance or high subclade
diversity for P312 there. Do you find R-L11* there with some significant
indicators of age?

I wish I knew more about R-L11*. It is rare in Western Europe. Does anyone
have an analysis of R-L11*?

Regards,
Mike

---------- Forwarded message From: <>

....I am not saying, for example, that the origin of P312 could be in
Ireland where the frequency is higher. I was pointing a rather "pure" P312
versus U106 split and this split, by itself, is a point to take into
consideration if you consider R-L11, U106 and P312 going on the same path in
the "conquest" of western Europe. What chances to get such a (geographical)
split in a mixed population ? Any other example ?
....
The 2 separate path that I have been proposing (P312 south, U106 north) can
be with an early origin of P312 in the Balkans if the spread was fast to the
west and close to the P312 origin.

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