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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-08 > 1313840771


From: Bill <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] G in Europe
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:46:11 -0400
References: <N1-OuascnJzp7@Safe-mail.net>
In-Reply-To: <N1-OuascnJzp7@Safe-mail.net>


There's a decent article on Wikipedia dealing with the "Cardium
Pottery Culture".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

For those not familiar with the term (there's bound to be some on
this list) Cardium pottery is characteristic of a specific culture
that originated about 8500 YBP in the eastern Mediteranean and moved
northwest into the Balkans, Italy, southern France, western Spain.
The characteristic form of the pottery used a "cardium" shell (think
cockle--see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockle_(bivalve) ) to leave
an impressed pattern on the wet clay.

The map in the Wikipedia article shows the distribution and movement.

I presume the G2a3 migration would show the same distribution?

The wikipedia article notes that the pottery style shows up late in
Morrocco. Does G2a3 also appear in that area?

Bill




On Aug 20, 2011, at 4:05 AM, wrote:

> I am following on my own post, with no comment until now. I realize
> that the group G2a3a with such a localization (Balkans and Italy)
> and an estimated age of 6700 BP is a good candidate for Cardial.
> Hence , G2a3a would have been the link between middle east farmers
> and G2a3b1 / G2a3b1a pastoralists.
> So, with Cardial expansion we have some new comers and LBK zould be
> mostly a diffusion of technics between the 2 cousin groups G2a3a
> and G2a3b1.
> This proposal is in good agreement with available data and makes
> G2a3b1 a very ancient stem in Europe. I don't think there were
> additional G migrations ; it's all european afterwards.
>
>> List,
>>
>> This post on G haplogroup because it seems that many people are
>> now associating G haplogroup arrival in Europe with LBK / Cardial
>> neolithic progress in Europe. I noted the dating made by Marko
>> Heinila a while ago and updated since then ; here for a section of
>> the results , limited to the main G2a3 subgroups :
>> http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/
>> G2a3.png
>> The main point is that there is a first , early evolution around
>> 9000 - 8700 years ago. Only G2a3a is dated of the neolithic period
>> LBK/ Cardial and this group has a rather limited geographical
>> dispersion in Europe (Mainly Balkans and Italy).
>> The point I want to make is that G2a3b1 (dated 9000) may have been
>> early pastoralist nomads ; they extended in new environments from
>> India to Europe. Paleo DNA found these guys and the conclusion I
>> am drawing, in complete opposition toothers, is that the spread of
>> LBK/Cardial was for a large part a diffusion of technics as
>> opposed to a demic dispersion. The pastoralists learned how to
>> grow crops etc...
>>
>> The next wave was at bronze age, first with G2a3b1a1 dated 4700
>> years ago, about the age of R-U106 in Marko Heinila dating. I
>> suspect that there was a local (european) evolution in connection
>> with R-U106/R-P312 spread. Later G2a3b1a2 maight be related to
>> Rhaetian / Etruscan (and later Romans) dispersion.
>> So, I see G2a3 as the probable "domesticator" of the main cattle
>> species and their early diffusion from the fertile cressant.
>> Didier
>
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