GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-08 > 1313894041
Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 22:34:01 -0400
One point I would like to add is a slight modification of the datation by Marko Heinila. Here is a link to a part of his table : http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/R1b.png .
It shows that R-P312 is now dated 4300 before present which is the beginning of bronze age in western Europe.
R-U106 is considered slightly older but it may not be significant .
Bell beakers oldest findings in Portugal have been dated 4900 before present, clearly before the onset of these 2 groups if the dating is correct. I'll take these date as correct. I understand that many people have serious doubt about the link of western "R1b" and Bell Beakers. I don't.
The problem with R-P312 origin in the upper Danubian area is that this position isn't really central to the next P312 expansion. Also the quick split in main subgroups like L21 , U152 and Z196 doesn't explain the many P312* found in Iberia and France .
I don't know if R-L51 and R-L11 reached Iberia but 23andME would know and I asked a while ago for maps. It's also too bad that we still don't have better sampling from France, Spain and Portugal. I wouldn't be surprised by a R-L51 weak signal in Portugal.
I mean : I believe that R-P312 is more recent than expected. Then I expect R-L51 to have been the arriving group and, for some reason, it wasn't detected yet. If people have data, please, speak up !
About the 2 R-L11 spot I would rather say that they both are associated with R-U106. Some early U106 went down the Danube river to Austria, for example, some others went down the Rhine river, to Holland. My view is that R-L11 ---» R-U106 was a continuum while R-P312 was a rupture, a clan made its way apart from the parent group.
> I just come back at home after holidays and see this topic.
> The L11(xU106,xP312) map from Myres paper is interesting. We can see three
> L11 hot spots: 1st is in upper Danube, 2d is in north Europe (Germany,
> ,Poland and south scandinavia) and 3d is in England.
> The england L11 hot spot could be the result of a Bell beaker migration from
> Netherlands to England, and so hot spot 2 and hot spot 3 would be originated
> from the same North Europe region.
> In this case, we have 2 hot spots for L11: the first one is in the upper
> Danube and could be the origine of P312, the second one in north Europe
> could be the origine of U106.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike W" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
> > Didier,
> > I didn't mean to imply that P312 and U106 had the exact same point of
> > origin, but I just think the distance between their launch points couldn't
> > be too great since they have about the same TMRCA as each other and as
> > their
> > common parent, the R-L11 MRCA. Also their modal haplotypes differ little.
> > If
> > one of us was tracking people in an DNA project that had a GD of only two
> > or three from ourselves across 67 markers, at least I'd be pretty excited
> > about it. We could be talking about the last 200 years or so. This is the
> > situation with R-U106, R-P312 and R-L11*.
> > I agree that P312 and U106 had different migration/expansion paths,
> > although
> > I'm not sure either's was pure. There was likely some other haplogroups
> > mixed including a little bit of P312 going with some of the U106 groups or
> > vica versa. I'm hesitant to use the word "pure" but if there was any
> > extremely high frequency movement, it would be P312's moves to the west,
> > not
> > necessarily U106's expansion(s.) I'll dig up up some information on what
> > I
> > mean.
> > Why do you propose an early origin for P312 origin in the Balkans? I
> > understand there were a number cultural/people expansions that emanated
> > from
> > SE Europe but I can't find genetic evidence of P312 being south of the
> > Lower
> > Danube valley. In other words, I don't see high variance or high subclade
> > diversity for P312 there. Do you find R-L11* there with some significant
> > indicators of age?
> > I wish I knew more about R-L11*. It is rare in Western Europe. Does
> > anyone
> > have an analysis of R-L11*?
> > Regards,
> > Mike
> > ---------- Forwarded message From: <>
> > ....I am not saying, for example, that the origin of P312 could be in
> > Ireland where the frequency is higher. I was pointing a rather "pure" P312
> > versus U106 split and this split, by itself, is a point to take into
> > consideration if you consider R-L11, U106 and P312 going on the same path
> > in
> > the "conquest" of western Europe. What chances to get such a
> > (geographical)
> > split in a mixed population ? Any other example ?
> > ....
> > The 2 separate path that I have been proposing (P312 south, U106 north)
> > can
> > be with an early origin of P312 in the Balkans if the spread was fast to
> > the
> > west and close to the P312 origin.
> > -------------------------------
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