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From: vernade didier <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 06:59:11 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <4E546D3E.5000607@jarman.net>


Who said L11 origin was in Switzerland ?
I think people pointed 2 main spots in Switzerland and Holland (+ British isles , considered by Bernard as a secondary event).

About data, I would like to repeat here that I questioned a while ago about 23andME sampling. 23andME has been testing for both L51 (M412) and L11 on a very large population and a map ( no names needed) would be very welcome. We need publicly available data on a larger scale.
Back to Myres et al. , the only good sampling and testing so far for L51 and L11. The main result was : very few L51* and no particular place, but rather in eastern Europe. L11 was showing the spots mentioned above.

My understanding has always been that L11 origin was somewhere in eastern Europe and that the spots are 2 steps in the way to western Europe. P312 fate was really unclear in Myres et al.
Then, as you pointed it, we have the problem of dating. Myres et al. do not get along the timing generally discussed on this list where R-P312 is seen as a fairly recent group whose expansion wasn't before 4300 BP.
I discussed before on this same thread why I think these dates may mean that the P312 group underwent a period with relatively poor growth rate before expanding, but I can't get a proof for that scenario.

Didier

John German wrote :

> Quoting from Myres 2010: "Our
> highresolution SNP genotype results show
> that the majority of Central and Western European
> haplogroups relate to
> common M412 [aka L51] founders whose sub-clades display
> phylogeographic
> and temporal patterns consistent with allele surfing at the
> periphery of
> expansions."
>
> Looking at Myres's maps I think I see P312* was born on the
> wave of  the
> L11* west and south expansion to the Atlantic and into
> Iberia (and also
> replacing its parent clade L11* in the receiving
> areas).  But when I
> look at the surviving numbers of L11* in the north and on
> Albion, I want
> to believe that portion of the L11* expansion wave arrived
> in
> Scandinavia before the birth of U106; this sub-class
> remained in
> isolation there until the deteriorating climate forced the
> southward
> migration during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. I think the
> presence of L11*
> and L23* in Switzerland is the result of expansion up the
> alps into
> isolation; I don't believe Switzerland is the L11* origin.
>
>
> Unfortunately Myres used Zhiv dating which put U106 and
> P312 with the
> LBK instead of with the Bell Beakers.


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