Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-08 > 1314682065

From: "Ray Banks" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] G in Europe
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:27:45 -0700
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

I will have to be included in the group of those who do not trust any date
calculated in deeper ancestry based on STR values. But guesstimates up to
3000 yrs based on the pedigree method with some modifications to handle back
mutations may have some validity.

You ask for the interclade estimations of the node for G2a3b1a1
(G2a3b1a1a-L13 apparently intended) and G2a3b1a2-L497 because you described
them as easy to distinguish European ones.

These are the figures I have been using for these ISOGG categories:
G2a3b1a1 (U1) -- 3500 yrs (but likely needs to be revised older because of
recent samples which are quite divergent from earlier ones)
G2a3b1a1a (L13) -- non European type 3500 yrs
G2a3b1a1a (L13) - European type with YCA 19,20 and DYS385a 13 or less --
2800 yrs
G2a3b1a2 (L497) -- 3200 yrs
G2a3b1a3 (L640, DYS568=9) -- 3200 yrs [this category is in the process of
being added to the ISOGG list in this position but does not currently
All dates with a reliability within about 500 yrs perhaps because the time
periods are older than the pedigree method can handle.

I did not intend this as an official offering of time calculations from a
particular formula because of the uncertainty involved -- but you asked.

Ray Banks

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Cc: <>; <>; <>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] G in Europe

>I am going to answer Ray but I need first to set 2 points. The first point
>is that this message is sent to several knowledgeable persons of the list
>because I just realized that all posts sent from
> are unknown at
>(search by mail address), so "G in Europe" that I posted this summer is
>like a ghost. Big surprise !
> The second point is that since this Busby paper with a database of 16298
> samples I have the idea that a paper on G haplogroup is in the way, may be
> by the same first author. So, there is no point of discussing in detail
> before new data are available.
> What I would ask to Ray or any author publishing on G haplogroup is
> INTERclade estimation of the node for G2a3b1a1 and G2a3b1a2. These 2
> groups are european and they are very different, easy to distinguish. If I
> compare to S21 / S116 to keep the naming from Busby et al. it's easy to
> see that the G node must be older than the R node is this case. The G node
> is around 8700 BP and if this point is contested I would like to know, for
> a matter of coherence, what the R node would be if the G node is younger
> ?
> PS : I called "G node" the node for G2a3b1a1 / G2a3b1a2

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