GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-12 > 1323316314
From: "Don Milligan" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] King Tut's DNA
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 19:51:54 -0800
THANK YOU ANATOLE!
ENJOYED YOUR INITIAL SUCCINCT SUMMARY! :-)
I HAVE SOME RELATED QUESTIONS I'D APPRECIATE YOUR VIEWS UPON:
1. WHERE WAS THE TERRITORIAL ORIGINS OF L 11?
2. WHERE WAS THE TERRITORIAL ORIGINS OF P312 ?
3. WHERE WERE THE TERRITORIAL ORIGINS OF U106 ?
4. WHERE IN FRANCE DID L-21+ FIRST APPEAR, AND SPECIFICALLY SPREAD WITHIN FRANCE ?
5. IN YOUR VIEW, WHERE DID M-222+ FIRST APPEAR/DERIVE FROM L-21+, AND THEN QUICKLY SPREAD TO?
6. AS YOU NOW, THERE HAS BEEN MUCH DISCUSSION AND VARIOUS OPINIONS AS TO THE EARLIEST SPREAD OF M-222+ THROUGHOUT IRELAND AND SIGNIFICANT LOCATIONS IN SCOTLAND, AND THE VARIOUS TIME-FRAMES INVOLVED.
CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AS TO WHETHER THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SIMULTANEOUS ORIGINS OF M-222+ CELTS IN NORTHERN FRANCE AMONG CERTAIN L-21+ CELTIC TRIBES?
COULD THERE HAVE BEEN FROM NORTHERN FRANCE, TWO M-222+ CELTIC WAVES MOVING INTO SOUTHERN & CENTRAL IRELAND AND SOUTHERN BRITAIN, THEN MOVING NORTH, AS A COMBINATION OF SOME M-222+ HALSTATT CELTS AND M-222+ LA TENE CELTS MINGLING IN PARTS OF SOUTHERN AND NORTHERN BRITAIN, WALES, SCOTLAND AND IRELAND?
MY UNDERSTANDING OF DNA REALITIES AND ANCIENT HISTORY LEAVES MUCH TO BE DESIRED. I HAVE BEEN WONDERING WHAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE MAY BE ON THE ABOVE ISSUES?
I WILL APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHTS ON THESE ISSUES.
DON MILLIGAN L-21+, M-222+: MILLIGAN M-222+ ANCESTOR TRAVELED FROM SOUTHWEST SCOTLAND AREA OF NITHSDALE TO COUNTY ANTRIM, NORTHERN IRELAND AS PART OF A LARGE PLANTATION EMIGRATION OF SCOTS CIRCA 1630-40.
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] King Tut's DNA
>From: "Don Milligan"
>HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE PATH OF THE L-21+ ANCESTORS OF THE CELTS INTO THE BRITISH ISLES?
It is a very good question. My answer would be: By land and by sea, and FAST.
Here is my scenario. R1b1a2 as Bell Beakers had moved from Iberia to the European continent as M269*, L11, P312 and U106 between 4800 and 4000 ybp. L21, as we all know, is a descendant subclade of P312. L21 had appeared either in Iberia or as soon as P312 moved to France. Calculations of as many as 1,024 of 67 marker L21 haplotypes gave 3750+/-380 ybp for their "overall" common ancestor in Europe.
However, calculations of 153 of Irish L21 (49 marker) haplotypes gave 3650+/-380 ybp for their common ancestor, and the same haplotypes in the 67 marker format gave 3575+/-365 ybp. As you see, it is practically the same "age" as the "overall" L21. It means that L21 appeared in the Isles right away as they arose in Iberia/Europe.
74 British L21 haplotypes gave 3950+/-420 ybp. It is the same "age" within margin of error.
38 Wales haplotypes gave 3700+/-410 ybp. Same thing.
All their base haplotypes are practically he same, with differences between some alleles in fractions. For example, DYS449 is 29.42 in the Irish haplotypes, and 29.62 in the British haplotypes. So, you can round it to 29 in the Irish L21 and to 30 in the British L21, but it is the same thing.
All calculations, diagrams and descriptions are given here (the first paper in the issue):
So, it seems that such a speed of reaching the Isles from Iberia/France can be achieved by land and by sea. Of course, one can invent all kinds of sophisticated scenarios, however, I would stick to the simplest one for the time being.
>From: Sam Sloan
>Are you saying that the R1b group moved across North Africa and
then crossed at Gibraltar into Spain, reaching the Pyrenees at ~
5,000-4,800 ybp and that is how we got into Western Europe?
Yes Sam, I was repeatedly saying it here at this Forum for the last three years. The Tut's haplotype and the accompanying story is a small (but promising) episode in the whole picture. However, this was not the only route of R1b1a2 entering to Europe between 5,000 and 4,500 ybp (and later, of course).
It seems that there were at least three principal routes: (1) across North Africa and then Gibraltar into the Pyrenees, and then as the Bell Beakers to the continental Europe (the oldest archaeological evidences for BB are found in Portugal and dated 4,900-4,800 ybp; the interclade TMRCA for R-P312 and R-U106 gives the same date, namely 4,800 ybp; there is plenty of R-M269* and P312* in the Pyrenees), (2) directly from Asia Minor westward (mainly R-L23), and (3) from Pontic steppes (north of the Black Sea) westward, again mainly L23.
Anatole Klyosov wrote:
>By the way, this interesting story has its continuation. As I have described at this Forum and not once, the migration route of R1b1a2 (after their "appearance" as R1b likely in Central Asia ~ 16,000 ybp and drifting westward via Southern Urals, Northern Kazakhstan, Mid Volga River, leaving behind the R1b Uyghurs, R1b Bashkirs, R1b Tatars, R1b Kazakhs, R1b Uzbeks with their VERY different R1b haplotypes, pointing at 16,000 ybp as a lifetime of a common ancestor with the European R1b), then the Caucasus (with the mainly R-L23 folks in Armenia, Dagestan, etc.) [TMRCA ~6,000 ybp], then Anatolia [TMRCA ~6,000 ybp), Iraq, Lebanon [TMRCA ~ 5,500 ybp], the future Middle Eastern Jews [R1b TMRCA ~ 5,500 ybp], they continued to move westward along the Northern African coastline and reached the Pyrenees at ~ 5,000-4,800 ybp. It is also likely that on its route the R-V88 group split and moved into the African continent, ending up in the Cameroon-Chad area. Indeed, the TMRCA for R1b-V8!
8 there is 4,400+/-600 ybp (Proceedings of the RA-DNA, 2010, March, vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 369-378).
> If this migration route is correct, R1b1a2 were supposed to pass Egypt between 5,500 and 5,000 ybp, and we can expect the appearance of the R1b1a2 lineage, which King Tut belonged to, between 5,500 and 5,000 ybp. It does not look as a pure coincidence, that Narmer, the first Pharaoh of unified Egypt and the founder of the First Dynasty (he belonged to a so-called "Zero Dynasty"), had appeared there 5,200 ybp. His origin remains unknown, "the identity of Narmer is the subject of ongoing debate" (as sources say), his name did not belong to the list of preceding royal titularies in Egypt.
> (The story is to be published in a few days with all details, haplotypes, Pharaoh dynasties, etc. in said Proceedings).
> Anatole Klyosov
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