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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] King Tut's DNA and the road to the Celts (was King Tut'sDNA)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 21:55:23 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <1692304488.820380.1323353877394.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
>From: "Don Milligan" < >
>COULD YOU PLEASE HELP US IDENTIFY THE APPROPRIATE SCIENTIFIC BOOKS COVERING
THE CELTS AND THEIR ORIGINS, ETC.
My response:
How about The Celts by Nora Chadwick (first published in 1971). From the Preface by Barry Cunliffe, Oxford (1997): "The appearance of Nora Chadwick's book "The Celts" a quarter of century ago was a milestone in Celtic Studies. It marked the culmination of a lifetime's study by one of our greatest Celtic scholars..."
It also starts with "The historic migrations of the Celts, which began at the end of the fifth century BC...". Before that, according to Nora Chadwick, were again migrations from the Pontic steppes, connected to the Scythians (Herodotus), who migrated westward along the Danube, and settled "probably as early as the eights century BC". Can you recognize R1b in them? I have difficulties. Europe was packed with R1b1a2 those times. Why not they were the Celts?
If you guys R1b1a2 here consider yourselves as descendants of the Celts, then the Celts were the different folks, and came - if P312, U106, U152, L21, etc. - from Iberia. In other words, the name "the Celts" seemingly has a multiple meaning.
If you want the Celts to be R1b1a2, forget about those Scythians coming from Pontic steppes and speaking IE languages. They were likely R1a1. They apparently were the first Celts. However, they did not carry on that name, and gave it away, to R1b1a2, along with their IE language.
If so, everything is in a good shape. That is how the IE languages got into R1b1a2 community.
Of course, this is just a version, but it is not a groundless one.
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov
************************************
>From: Lplantagenet ...what is your view on the Celts? Do you think they
>belonged to R1b or to another Haplogroup?
Dear Lindsey,
It all depends how you would define the Celts. Do you consider them the same
as the Gauls?
There a few reasons why I do not feel comfortable to discuss origin of the
Celts here. First, I do not feel truly qualified, albeit I am not sure if
anyone is truly qualified to discuss the origin of Celts. Second, I do not
know on what level you want the discussion (including that on haplogroups) -
on the level "he said - she said", on a level of popular stories, of the
level on typical books on the Celts (which often fit to one of the preceding
categories), or on the level of academic science (which, alas, is also full
of fables).
As I have noticed, the more scientific, hence, serious work, the less it is
specific on the origin of Celts. Most of them do not say a word where the
Celts came from. The recent "The Celts" DVD from the series "Ancient
Civilizations" says that the first Celts came from the Pontic steppes in the
middle of the 1st millennium BC. Have you seen R1b in the Pontic steppes
2500 years ago? On the other hand, a lot of R1a1 tribes came to Central
Europe from the East 2500 ybp. They spoke IndoEuropean languages. Other
sources date the Celts in Europe from 700-400 BC upward to our times. What
was before that?
Anyway, I would be happy to discuss the Celts if you folks find the origin
of the Celts in high quality scientific books. Plenty of sources write that
the Celts spoke IE language. If they were R1b1a2, why all of a sudden they
start to speak IE languages in the middle of the 1st millennium BC? What was
before that? What language had they spoken 1500 BC? 2000 BC? 2500 BC? Any
scientific evidences?
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov
********************************************
>Anatole Klyosov:
>Regarding the Celts, you need to give a clear definition who they were,
>where and when. The Celts are known from the 1st millennium BC, the R1b
>in Europe from the 3rd millennium BC. As you see, there is an obvious
>disconnection between these dates. The Celts in the 1st millennium BC
>spoke IndoEuropean language, the R1b1a2 in the 3-2 millennia probably
>did not. In fact, we do not know who those Celts from the 1st
>millennium BC were in terms of their haplogroups. Folks "assume" that
>they had R1b. I do not assume it. I do not know, though I have my
considerations.
************************************
>From: Lplantagenet ...what is your view on the Celts? Do you think they
>belonged to R1b or to another Haplogroup?
Dear Lindsey,
It all depends how you would define the Celts. Do you consider them the same
as the Gauls?
There a few reasons why I do not feel comfortable to discuss origin of the
Celts here. First, I do not feel truly qualified, albeit I am not sure if
anyone is truly qualified to discuss the origin of Celts. Second, I do not
know on what level you want the discussion (including that on haplogroups) -
on the level "he said - she said", on a level of popular stories, of the
level on typical books on the Celts (which often fit to one of the preceding
categories), or on the level of academic science (which, alas, is also full
of fables).
As I have noticed, the more scientific, hence, serious work, the less it is
specific on the origin of Celts. Most of them do not say a word where the
Celts came from. The recent "The Celts" DVD from the series "Ancient
Civilizations" says that the first Celts came from the Pontic steppes in the
middle of the 1st millennium BC. Have you seen R1b in the Pontic steppes
2500 years ago? On the other hand, a lot of R1a1 tribes came to Central
Europe from the East 2500 ybp. They spoke IndoEuropean languages. Other
sources date the Celts in Europe from 700-400 BC upward to our times. What
was before that?
Anyway, I would be happy to discuss the Celts if you folks find the origin
of the Celts in high quality scientific books. Plenty of sources write that
the Celts spoke IE language. If they were R1b1a2, why all of a sudden they
start to speak IE languages in the middle of the 1st millennium BC? What was
before that? What language had they spoken 1500 BC? 2000 BC? 2500 BC? Any
scientific evidences?
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov
********************************************
>Anatole Klyosov:
>Regarding the Celts, you need to give a clear definition who they were,
>where and when. The Celts are known from the 1st millennium BC, the R1b
>in Europe from the 3rd millennium BC. As you see, there is an obvious
>disconnection between these dates. The Celts in the 1st millennium BC
>spoke IndoEuropean language, the R1b1a2 in the 3-2 millennia probably
>did not. In fact, we do not know who those Celts from the 1st
>millennium BC were in terms of their haplogroups. Folks "assume" that
>they had R1b. I do not assume it. I do not know, though I have my
considerations.
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