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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Middle eastern R1b
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:26:14 -0500


Good if there was other evidences (but you didn't mention which ones). May be my comparison between the haplogroups I and R1b wasn't convincing but I'll take that point to emphasize on the main difficulty I have with the present situation :
Looking at the haplotypes on www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk , the R1b-V88 group doesn't look that old as compared , for example, to the R1b-M73 group. You can check by variance or by a comparison on a linear basis like A. Klyosov is doing and you'll end up with some kind of puzzle nether discussed so far on this list : it looks like the R1b-V88 haplotypes we have at hand are from one (or may be 2) branch(es) with a MRCA much more recent than the expected MRCA of R1b-L389 and R1b-V88 ; that was the point I wanted to focus on with my comparison. Actually, the situation is such that I see some kind of discrepancy between the tree (from SNP data) and the haplotypes we have at hand. How can it be that R1b-V88 isn't more different from a R1b-P312 than is a R1b-M73 ?

Last, let me repeat that we may be finding the evidences of a relatively ancient and long stay of R1b1 in the middle east but the whole story still needs more comparison with presumed R1b-M343* found in central asia.


Didier


> > I believe that this split in R1b-V88 versus R1b-L388 is mainly the
> > reason for the proposition of an origin in the middle east. Actually
> > it's more than a proposition on isogg and I was rather surprised.
> > Looking at the haplotypes the R-V88 group doesn't look that old.
>
> Didier,
>
> This split of R-343 into two subclades (R-L389 and R-V88) is not at
> all the main evidence for a SW Asian origin of R-M343. That deduction
> was made well before L389 was discovered. The map you referenced was
> drawn primarily to illustrate the current geographic spread of the two
> subclades, but I do think it has a evidentiary benefits. Namely, I
> think it helps us focus the hypothesis for where in SW Asia the MRCA
> of R-343 might have lived.
>
> As for the comparison to haplogroup I, the structure of R-M343 is
> somewhat different from that of I to my eyes. After the MRCA of R-
> M343, there is a relatively frequent branching structure with new
> clades being preserved (aka "formed") more-or-less consistently. The
> rate is not constant, but few branches are more than 5,000 years long
> and some are quite a bit shorter. Maybe one clade preserved every 2-3
> ky, on average? The branch from R-M343 to R-V88 is one of the longest
> ones.
>
> VV


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