Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-12 > 1324329970

Subject: Re: [DNA] Middle eastern R1b
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:26:10 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <>

>From: Vincent Vizachero

>>Anatole Klyosov wrote:
>> It is a long time known that a common ancestor of M73 and P312 is MUCH older than a common ancestor of V88 and P312.

>This statement could not be more incorrect, and illustrates a complete failure understand the fundamentals of a phylogenetic tree.

My response:




Here we go again... the above is a trademark style of VV. When there is lack of knowledge, he launches an aggressive personal attack. Been there, seen that.


However, I could not care less. I consider DATA, not a hand waving by the "opponent".


>The son cannot be older than the father: it is a biological impossibility.

Please leave "sons" and "fathers" for yourself. I need DATA. You cannot provide it, as it seems from your "response".


>Intraclade variance calculations ... for the subclades of R-M73 yields a TMRCA estimate somewhat younger than the TMRCA of R-V88.


Nice language - "somewhat younger". He said "somewhat younger", she said "somewhat older", uncle Jim said "much older"... 


How about DATA? Base haplotypes, TMRCA calculations, both intra- and interclade ones. Got knowledge? :-)))


>... but we don't let that distract us if we are smart.




"If" is a good word here.



Anatole Klyosov  

>From: "didier vernade" <>
>Here is the analysis sent off list and mentioned by A. Klyosov :

"Here are data. If you take the base haplotype of Central Asian R1b1a1-M73, in the first 25 markers it differs from, for example, P312 (as an example of the European R1b1a2) by 25 mutations (!). It means that M73 and P312 are separated by 25/0.046 = 543 -->1063 "conditional" generations, that is by 26,575 years. It translates to the lifetime of THEIR common ancestor of 16,000 years ago.


I took two branches of V88 from a haplotype tree which I composed today, and they differ from P312 base haplotype by only 13 and 15 mutations, respectively. It translates to 13/0.046 = 282 --> 391 generations, that is 9,775 years and 15/0.046 = 326 --> 476 generations, or 11,900 years. It translates to the lifetime of the common ancestor of P312 and V88 of 8100 years ago.


It is interesting that the both branches differ from P312 by 39 mutations in 67 markers, which gives 39/0.12 = 325 --> 474 generations, or 11850 years between them. It is exactly what the 25 marker haplotypes gave (see above, 326 --> 476 generations). In other words, the distance between P312 and V88 is perfectly reproducible. This again shows that a common ancestor of P312 and V88 lived 8100 years ago.


It is also interesting that those two branches of V88 are VERY distant from each other. Their base haplotypes differ by 41 mutations (!!), that is MORE that P312 and V88. It mean that these two V88 branches have a common ancestor 12750 years ago. It came from a long distance, apparently on a way from Central Asia.


Here is what we see: The Central Asian common ancestor of R1b lived 16,000 ybp. It migrated westward, and derived V88 some 12750 years ago on its way. The two V88 branches have a common ancestor with P312 some 8,100 years ago. It might be at the middle of R1b way to Middle East. M269 arose ~ 7,000 years ago. L23 in the Caucasus and in Anatolia have a common ancestor ~6,000 ybp. Middle Eastern R1b1a2 have a common ancestor 5,500 ybp. V88 in Africa have a common ancestor 4400 ybp. R1b1a2 in Iberia have a common ancestor 4,800 ybp."

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