GENIRE-L ArchivesArchiver > GENIRE > 2003-01 > 1043196398
From: "Jane Lyons" <>
Subject: Strays, poetry and middle names & things - genealogy oriented
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:46:38 -0000
First of all, thank you to Michael and Tim who made me think of things I
have thought of in the past or begun to build on - but then forgotten
because other things seems to become inportant - thanks to Gordon, who
mentioned the middle names to me again and all who commented on confirmation
names - the comments I mention were not made on any of the rootsweb lists
that I manage (Leix & Monaghan) - but I think, that this mail is relevant to
anyone who is researchig their genealogy and so I am sending it to my other
lists. - and Genire
First of all names - those second names that so many of you have - John
Michael or Jennifer Anne to think of two.
The giving of a second name was prevalent amongst non catholics - pre
1850's. - but - at the same time, not common practise - please understand
that by prevalent I mean it occurred mostly amongst non-catholics, but I
don't think it was common practise and by saying common, I don't think that
it occurred in 50% of the non-catholic population. That guess is based on
what I have seen in the civil registers as regardsnames. Now, I am fully
aware, that a child could be given two names at baptism and a parent could
possibly have only chosen one name before civil registration - today.
Usually, back when you are all interested in children were baptised before
they were registered in the civil books - and so it would stand to reason
that if they had two names - both would be listed in that civil
Now, there is something that I see going around the net regularly and it's
all about Irish naming practises - and I honestly have to say that this
naming practise has not jumped up and bit me in the face as we say, when
going through parish registers or reading gravestones - I do have one friend
who has the whole parish register (Roman Catholic) for one town in Ireland
and she swears by the naming practise - maybe I just haven't been working
one locality enough to become so familiar with families as to be able to see
this practise myself.
*But* I do have something that I have ofetn wondered about - I'm interested
in names - not necessarily naming practises.......and I've often wondered
about percentages - the chances of someone belonging to you when you find a
family with a similar unusual name - not even too unusual, just not
common...........and then put that with an unusual surname - what can you
deduce - what are the chances of this person really belonging somewhere in
your line even though you have found the reference on the other side of the
world or even in the next parish.
and I think, that statistically something can be done with names. So, in
the end, we can take the Irish naming pattern thingy that goes round the net
and put it together with a statistical analysis of first names and their
occurrence and maybe point ourselves or make ourselves a bit more sure about
a connection - never 100%, not unless we find that parish record........but
I think it's worth taking a look at.
So, Gordon, you reminded me of what I had said about middle names before -
that I believed that people who had a middle name had taken the name of
their father - similar to the way it is in Gaeltacht - Irish speaking
areas - when the son will call himself or be acknowledged as (even today) as
Paddy Mick.........that is Paddy the son of Mick (michael). I'm thinking
now that maybe the confirmational name was more important back then and so
people gave that as part of their name when asked what their name was. So,
we will never find Paddy Mick Lyons in any parish register while we might
find a Paddy (Patrick) or lots of them in the register we look at.
Middle names or second names are therefore not as important as you think in
the searching for records - unless you are lucky enough to have a
confirmational register in the parish you are looking at.
But they are important in finding some kind of link - maybe to the parish -
maybe the second name is the name of the patron saint of the parish or the
diocese -something like that.
Now, I move on to strays. What I call strays - someone from one county who
I find reference to in another county - or someone from a particular county
in Ireland, who I fiind a reference of some sort to in another country.
So, your family came from this county and there were so many of them and
some went here, some went there and some went thither and
You search for the list as you know them to be - here, we can take in my
nuns who changed names - the priests who may or may not have ended up in
their own diocese or parish - from what I've seen of non Catholic religious
the same applies - in the end you get sent close to home. These diocescan
lists of priests and parishes or ecclesiastical whatevers - they're no joke,
no.............I'm thinking all the time of how I have read that these men
ended up close to home, I'm hoping that one person - somewhere, sometime
will make the effort worthwhile - they'll find that name - probably an
unusual one and begin to wonder is he or she mine - somewhere along the
I know - that I have already had results on my Stray postings - people who
have spotted a name on one of the county lists - a family and been able to
say - Jane, these are mine............and that makes posting lists of strays
or the thought of creating a web page with them on it worthwhile.
Tim and his Kilkenny Murrays tonight - maybe some day - 20 years from now,
will find that reference somewhere in the Y-IRL archives indexed by one of
the search engines.............
One fo the reasons I post to so many lists - no, it's not so 's my name can
get about - it's 'cos I know we're all being indexed by the search engines -
I don't know how they index mail lists - I do know that with web stes the
fashionable thing for them is to rate you depending on how many links are
being created to your web site - thay have to have some kind of grading
pattern witt mail lists - and so, I can post to lots - depending of course,
whether I am with it or not and I may just ake my post to the Y-IRL list.
Poetry - Michael (Kiltone) posted a mail recently on song
genealogy................song genealogy to me is balladry - in a ballad,
they speak of people in a locality.
I know myself, and I am no real family history researcher - it's akind of a
nice feeling to find something writtten by someone who has your surname -
makes you stop to think - and then, I know also from ballads and poetry - so
many people can be mentioned - you really can stop to think then and wonder
was that Biddy Murphy your relation because you came from the same place in
Poetry - History - So many say that they hate both becasue of the way they
were taught...............and then they come on mail lists and maybe it's a
gradual thing - but they begin to read mails they never thought they would
and begin to realise there's more to this genealogy crack (fun - hobby) than
meets the eye - or, hey, I'm findig this intertesting becasue it's not all
full of dates - it's stories.
Having said all of the above - thanks to those of you who have read this
far - hope you found it 'thoughtful'............I can't remember what my
Took a break...................and it came to mind............
Things...........what makes me feel sad..............
Another post, I think.
|Strays, poetry and middle names & things - genealogy oriented by "Jane Lyons" <>|