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From: "Vera Beljakova" <>
Subject: Archives: division of records / church v civic
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:21:07 +0200


(Hi Patrice, If you can put this through to the Volga-List:

I think the problem is that different people use different
terminologies for the same item.

Russia followed Europe quite closely.

all records are divided into CHURCH AND CIVIL.

Peter the Great demanded that all/ALL CHURCHES,
including Jews and Muslims, start keeping
'proper' church (religious institution) records.
Before that clerics kept records as they
saw fit, in any old style that suited them.
(Peter wanted to keep track of the population
and started to streamline procedures)

Peter also introduced the revisions/census
(civil records for tax reasons and state service.)

Later, it was deemed that there must be interim Civic records,
which I call "Admin Records", which each parish/precinct had,
these were to keep records in between census times
(to keep track of the population)
and were kept by the village secretary.
They can also be called in our GR-sense as "Village Lists" - same thing.

These interim population records are colloquially known as
"Family" Lists, because there is one double-page spread in a
bound book per family unit living in one household which is
numbered.

These were filled in, but here it depended on the efficiency of the
village
clerk/secretary = some are very efficient and wrote in masses of details

(the new bride's/wife's maiden surname, from which village she came),
some would just note the first
name (no surname, no villge of origin).

Looking at the Family Lists of my own family,
I see that my grandfather must have examined
them (prior to 1903), because in his own handwriting (which I know
well),
I see all sorts of additions made in pencil by him,
mainly adding maiden surnames of the new brides being
brought to the village, with the village of origin.

These cover the usual, birth, marriage, death &
Column 7 which is for "extra comments"

Then, under "comments" column, again,
depending on the efficiency of the scribe, you will see
which person has been sent on call-ip/military duty/national service,
if he is in the Reserves, if he has moved to another village,
if he has applied to leave the village commune,
(that is the precurser to emigrating to USA),
if he finished university education, with a degree, etc...

In the "Family Lists" of 1885, one can see a 'additional notes'
in various different handwritings which were added at different times
to the original info - (in my case) right up to 1903...for others
families it might be later.

All these records were copied/or/and kept in the "Village Admin",
in smaller villages, these would be copied out/or original sent to
the "main" village, which is the same as the "Village District"
office, or the "volost'".

"Village District" is the same as Volost'
and is made up of 2 - 4 villages,
and is also known as "Rural Admin/ Area"

Several Volosts make up an Uezd (County, sometimes knows as District)

Several uezds, districts (later called rayon), make up a
Gubernia/Obloast' which is a Province. In French "Gouvernements".


The Archives in Engels and Saratov, and all provincial archives,
eventually became repositories of the CHURCH BOOKS/registers ;
the ADMIN / VOLOST' / CIVIL RECORDS.
including census/revisions/"Family Lists".

The Admin records section, I personally, find the more interesting
because these include
commerce, trading, mills, shops, memos between the various government
departments,
overseers/mayors between the village mayor and the village district
(volost') mayor; land
and boundary and grazing on meadowland disputes; court cases,
imprisonments, fines,
whippings, theft, divorce, bankruptcy, wills, inheritances, debts,
schools, etc. and all
other such civic matters. And these go right back to the
Khirgiz/Kalmuck attacks and
Pugachev rebellions.

Admin records for Saratov, eg. include the Diaries of the Chief Judge
for 1774, who was
head of the Chancellery of Guardianship for Foreigners, the disputes,
petitions and
settlements (I have this book in Russian) between Villagers and their
Mayors/overseers +
petitions of villages and/and individual colonists.

So, when you ask the Archives in either Saratov or Engels or Volgograd
to do your genealogy (or ask Pleve), all researchers immediately go to
the
(A)census or/and the
(B) Family Lists, extract the detailed info =
and ONLY THEN go over to the
(C) church books, for more details, such as date of baptism, godparents,
name of church, witnesses, name of priest, etc...

When you ask for a "marriage / Birth / Death certificate", all you will
get
Is a photocopy of the extract from the church book.

Next: When GRs or Russians requested "civic records", say. For passport
application, emigration, university entrances/admissions, up to 1918
(maybe later),
the church authorities would type out on 1-2 sheets of paper, all the
relevant details from their own church books, and have then verified,
signed and sealed.
(I have samples).

The main thing to remember is that the Archives hold
both church and civic records,
and the researchers/archivist will know
what is available and what she can consult,
she will use the archives Card-Index.

I hope this is slightly clearer.

best wishes

Vera Beljakova-Miller
=================







> Vera,
> Thanks for the clarification, so the lists sent to the Volost were
just
> taken from the same civil or adminstrative records we have previously
> discussed. And what was recorded in the civil or adminstrative records

> varied tremendously over the years and from village to village. And in
the>
> case of Josefstal the records appear to be very detailed with complete

> lists of births, deaths and marriages. The copies of these records
sent
to>
> the Volost could be another source of information if the originals
have
> been lost.
>
> What we don't know for certain is if the Josephstal list was pulled
from
> the civil or administrative records from a census type periodic survey
or
> if they started to maintain a seperate list of life events (births,
deaths>
> and marriages) recording them as they occured. If they started to
maintain>
> these types of records in Russia, it came late.
>
> For clarification, the term vital records in the US refers to the
> individual recording of life events, birth, death and marriages. It
may
go>
> by different names in different countries. A certificate of each event
can>
> be provided by the local government for each event. It has nothing to
do
> with a census or periodic record keeping.
>
> Patrice
>
>
> At 01:25 PM 1/7/2005, wrote:
> >further:
> >
> >Ted and Patrice !
> >
> >I have samples of Family List records from 1874 and then 1885,
> >with additional notes entered up to 1903 (in my case).
> >
> >These are called civic or administration records.
> >Copies were also with the volost' or Village District Office.
> >
> >Vera
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is quite an interesting find, particularly since you have
seen them
> > > yourself. I have been told by Pleve that he has not seen any
vital> records
> > > for the Volga Germans and they were not kept. So perhaps he does
not> know
> > > because they were not kept by the archives or they were very rare
and he
> > > has just not come across them.
> > >
> > > The question that Robert asked was about a 1847 marriage. For this
time
> > > period, I am confident, from everything I have learned, that there
were>
> > not
> > > any vital records. Perhaps sometime after 1874 when Family Lists
(or
> > > Administrative Village lists or Civil Lists) were instituted, the
record
> > > keeping could have been changed or evolved over time.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on how we might get access to some of the Volost
records? I
> > > wonder how to correlate the villages with the Volosts.
> > >
> > > Patrice
> > >
> > > At 02:23 PM 1/6/2005, you wrote:
> > > >Hi Patrice:
> > > >
> > > >While perusing records of Josefstal in the Volgograd archives in
2003,> I
> > > >came across complete lists of births, deaths and marriage for
> > Josefstal from
> > > >1907 to 1914. These were copies of reports sent to the
Volost> government,
> > > >in this caes the Ilavlin volost. At each name was also the
family> number,
> > > >that is the number assigned a family for any records. I found
the same
> > > >numbers on some of the Josefstal draft records as well.
> > > >
> > > >I bring this up because if we can get access to some of the
Volost
> > records,
> > > >we might find that there are other sources for records other than
just> the
> > > >Church records.
> > > >
> > > >How long these records were kept, where they are, etc I do not
know.
> > > >
> > > >Edward (Ted) Gerk
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From:
[mailto:]
> > > >Sent: January 6, 2005 2:05 PM
> > > >To:
> > > >Subject: Re: [GV] Marriage Ccertificate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Robert,
> > > >There were not vital statistics in the Volga during that time
period.> In
> > > >other words, there are not any birth, marriage or death
certifcates.> The
> > > >church did keep records, and if the church records for you
village
> > have been
> > > >found, then the entry for their marriage can be researched. Have
you
> > > >contacted Randi Bolyard at
> > > > who is the village coordinator for Rosenheim?
He> should
> > > >know more about what records for his village have been found. Or
ask> the
> > > >german volga mail list what records are available for Rosenheim,
> > someone on
> > > >the list may be able to help you also.
> > > >
> > > >Patrice Miller
> > > >
> > > >-------------- Original message --------------
> > > >
> > > > > Good afternoon,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How I do to obtain the marriage certificate of
my> great-grandmothers?,
> > > > > they
> > > > > married
> > > > > in 1847 Rosenheim-Saratov-Russia.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Roberto Stadler
> > > > >
> > > > > São Paulo - Brazil
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >






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