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Archiver > HALBERT > 2000-07 > 0964962042


From: "John Halsey Flannery" <>
Subject: Are HALBERTs of KY actually "Pocahontas' Descendants"?
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 06:00:42 -0700


Folks:

I apologize for the length of this message, & hope that it is not too
incoherent.

I am deeply troubled by the sheer quantity of muddled "genealogies" for the
descendants of JOEL HALBERT (I), & the even more muddled attempts being made
to connect them back to Pocahontas that rely on "sources" of dubious
credibility.

Especially vexing is the conflicting & contradictory dates given in hundreds
of "sources": IGI "records", Ancestral Files, Pedigrees, GEDCOMS on
ancestry.com, web-pages, World Family Trees, etc.
__________________
I Found these on GenealogyBooks.com:

1.) From the "Cary-Estes Genealogy":

[quote]

Robertson's "Pocahontas and Her Descendants."

Pocahontas, b. 1595; d. 1617 at Gravesend, England; md. John Rolfe, April
1614, who was first Secretary and Recorder General of Va.; b. at Heacham,
England, 1585; d. at James City, Va. 1623. (Pocahontas was his second wife.)

Tom Rolfe, b. 1615; d. 16--; md. Jane Poythress.

Jane Rolfe, d. 1678; md. Col. Robert Bolling.

John Bolling of "Cobbs," b. 1676; d. 1729, member of Burgess; md. Mary
Kennon; had one son and five daughters.

Jane Bolling, b. 1703; d. 1766; md. Col. Richard Randolph, b. 1690; d. 1748;
Burgess and Treasurer of Va.

Mary Randolph, b. 1727; d. 1781; md. Col. Archibald Cary of "Ampthill," b.
1721; d. 1787.

[end quote]
_________________________

2.) From "Biography of POCAHONTAS":

[quote]

4. Jane Bolling, b. 1703; d. 1766; m. Col. Richard Ran- | | |
dolph, of "Curles"; b. 1690; d.1748 (M. H. B. and | | |
Treasurer of Virginia). (See Notice B)...................| 9 | 5 | 4
[total: | children | sons | daughters]

[end quote]
________________________

Both of the above are based on Robertson's original work "Pocahontas and Her
Descendants" which does not mention Frances Randolph, nor John Jones or Joel
Halbert.

This work is long outdated & has been updated as "Pocahontas' Descendants"
[3 Vols (includes 'Additions & Corrections' Vol 1 & 2) + a 3rd 'Additions &
Corrections'], which I plan to purchase in August.

This remains the only published source that I have been able to locate
regarding the Descendants of Pocahontas through the BOLLING & RANDOLPH
families.

_________________________

Here is a typical attempt to attach Joel Halbert (I)'s children as
descendants of Pocahontas. I have placed published dates in brackets [ ], &
known erroneous dates in parentheses ( ) with double quotes "". My own
estimates for dates are in brackets [ ] with double quotes. Other comments
of my are also in brackets [ ]:

Descendants of Col. Richard Randolph

1 Richard Randolph 1686 [1690] - 1748
+Jane Bolling 1698 [1703] - 1766
2 Frances Randolph 1725 ("1705") -
+John Jones 1705 ["about 1725"]-
3 Elizabeth Frances Jones 1740 ["between 1715 & 1725"] -
+Joel Halbert I 1712 - 1762
4 Elizabeth [Hanniniah (?)] Halbert 1740 -
4 John Halbert 1741 -
4 Hannah Elizabeth Halbert 1742 -
4 William Anson Halbert 1744 - 1808
+Elizabeth Hill 1747 - 1836
4 Joel halbert II 1749 - 1818
+Hannah ? 1749 -
4 Frances [Jones (?)] Halbert 1751 -
2 Mary Randolph 1727 -
+Archibald Cary
2 Jane Randolph 1729 -
2 Richard Randolph 1730 - 1786
+Anne Meade
2 Bhunt Randolph 1731 -
2 Brett Randolph 1736 -
2 Ryland Randolph 1738 -
2 Elizabeth Randolph 1739 -
+Richard Kidder Meade
2 John Randolph 1742 -
+Frances Bland

The year "1705", found in some "sources" as the alleged year of birth for
Frances Randolph was probably intended to resolve the problem of the year of
birth for her alleged daughter, Elizabeth Frances Jones, which has to be no
later than about 1725. It was probably derived by simply substracting 20
years from 1725.

Unfortunately, the published date of birth for Frances Randolph's mother,
Jane Bolling Randolph (1703-1766) conflicts with "1705" as the birth year of
Frances. I've seen one example where the compiler solved that problem by
pushing Jane Bolling's year of birth back to 1675, an impossible date.

The most recent attempt to resolve the problem so that the Halberts can
remain descendants of Pocahontas involves asserting that Frances Randolph is
the same person as Elizabeth Frances Jones, thus asserting that her name
when she allegedly married Joel Halbert was actually "Elizabeth Frances
Randolph Jones".

This is not impossible, but it ignores the name of Frances Randolph's
sister, Elizabeth Randolph, and the fact that none of Joel Halbert's
children by Elizabeth Frances Jones seem to have been named after any
RANDOLPH or any BOLLING.

A few folks give the name of Joel Halbert's daughter, Frances Halbert, as
Frances Jones Halbert, which in my mind means that her mother was a JONES,
not a RANDOLPH. It should also be noted that pre-computer BOLLING & RANDOLPH
genealogists have found no evidence that Frances Randolph married Joel
Halbert I, unless one considers the IGI & AF "records" as evidence; I do
not, nor does the LDS.

Adding to the muddle is that Elizabeth Frances Jones is often found as
simply Frances Jones, which suggests that someone may have attempted to edit
the name.
________________________

Here is my own (rambling) analysis of the situation:

Jane Bolling & Richard Randolph were probably married between 1720 & 1725,
certainly not about 1718, & Frances Randolph was probably born about 1725, &
surely no earlier than about 1720.

She supposedly married John Jones (I) about or before 1740. Joel Halbert I
married Elizabeth Frances Jones about 1740. Her year of birth must have been
between 1715 (assuming she was 25 years old when she married Joel Halbert) &
1725 (assuming that she was 15 years old when she married Joel Halbert), so
it is not impossible that this is the same person as Frances Randolph Jones.

The assumption being that John Jones died before about 1740 & left no
children, & that she then married Joel Halbert.

[Joel Halbert was previous married to Mary (Cook) Biswell, daughter of
Jeremiah Biswell & Ann Cook. They had 2 daughters: Mary Halbert & Sarah
Halbert. Ann Cook's father was apparently John Cook, who may have been
either the brother of Mary Cook who married (2nd) William Halbert I, or her
nephew, or whatever.]

The point here is that Elizabeth Frances Jones cannot possibly have been the
daughter of Frances Randolph, since they would have been born within 10
years of one another at most.

They could possibly be the same person, namely "Elizabeth Frances (nee
Randolph) Jones", but we need more evidence of this possibility, not merely
citations from the IGI or from AFs, or from World Family Trees, etc.

It is important to understand that this is the only way that the children of
Joel Halbert can be descended from Pocahontas, & it requires further
clarification, before being accepted as "gospel". Fudging by using or citing
faulty dates only muddles the situation.

However, it is also at least possible that Elizabeth Frances Jones was a
unrecorded sister of a John Jones (II), who married Frances Randolph, & that
their mutual father was possibly John Jones (I), which does not seem to have
occurred to any other "speculator".

This is supported by the fact that Joel & Frances Halbert had a daughter
that may have been named Frances Jones Halbert, & by the fact that Frances
Randolph had a younger sister, Elizabeth Randolph, so that it is
questionable whether Frances Randolph's first name was also Elizabeth.

This scenario does leaves us with the problem of what happened to Frances
Randolph & to John Jones unresolved. If this scenario is correct, then the
Descendants of Joel Halbert I cannot be descended from John Rolfe & Matoaka.
This scenario will not please my fellow Halbert descendants at all.

We therefore have the following possible scenarios & sub-scenarios:

Scenario 1.) Richard Randolph & Jane Bolling were married between 1720 &
1725. Their daughter & first child Frances Randolph was born very close to
1725. NOTE: There is no evidence that her full name was "Elizabeth Frances
Randolph". That is merely a researcher's assumption.

Sub-scenario a.) Frances Randolph may have married first: John Jones (I),
second: Joel Halbert. If so, she married John Jones (I) about or before
1740, & then married Joel Halbert I before about 1741. [In this case, she
could not possibly have had a child by John Jones (I) named "Elizabeth
Frances Jones" who married Joel Halbert I about 1741]. Some researchers have
thus apparently misnamed her "Elizabeth Frances (Randolph) Jones".

Sub-scenario b. ) Frances Randolph did not marry John Jones (I), & her
marriage to Joel Halbert I was her only marriage. Some researchers have thus
apparently misnamed her "Elizabeth Frances Jones".

Scenario 2.) Frances Randolph married an undocumented John Jones (II), who
was not John Jones (I), but his son, & did not marry Joel Halbert. Instead,
Joel Halbert I married Elizabeth Frances Jones, daughter of John Jones (I),
& sister of John Jones (II).

Note: Frances Randolph thus apparently disappears from genealogical history.
She is not ancestral to the descendants of Joel Halbert I, but may instead
be ancestral to the descendants of John Jones (II).

Both scenarios are equally possible, & equally speculative.

I would urge folks who have genealogy files that trace the HALBERTs back to
Pocahontas to carefully scrutinize each ancestral link for faulty,
improbable, or impossible dates, & for other possible errors.

I too would like to believe that the HALBERTs are descended from Pocahontas,
but credulity is not a substitute for verification, although one does have
to resort to logical analysis if actual verification is not possible (due
to inadequate records).

I have seen far to many parents being listed as born after their children,
or even after their grandchildren.

Halsey

[Descendant of Isaac Flannery (1811-1884) & Susan Caroline Halbert
(1822-about 1865)]

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