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From:
Subject: Re: Gear at Grunwald
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 02:16:00 GMT
References: <saa4be9b.027@mail.walterhav.com>
In-Reply-To: <saa4be9b.027@mail.walterhav.com>
I cannot for the life of me understand why you believe that early 15th
century Poland was more influenced by the World of Islam with which it
shared no border at all at the time than by nearby Germany and the
rest of Christian Europe. You seem to take your examples from a very
wide geographical and an even wider historical field using examples,
such as the Stockholm Roll that belong to a much later period.
In the Polish army as in any other of the day, not all were equally
well equipped and indeed the knight was supported by lighter types of
cavalry in the "lance" combat team. In fact bow armed light cavalry
can be seen beyond the Serbian hussars in the Orsza painting.
However you seem to have completely the wrong end of the stick in
your vision of the tactics that might have been used at the Orsza by
the Poles. It is the Russians who are the horse archers there and the
Poles who depend upon a mixture of the fire of arquebusiers and
cannon, the charges of their knights and the pursuit of the Hussars
and the lighter Polish cavalry, just as the painting depicts. This
painting would have been viewed by the men who had won that battle and
though the role of the nobs of the host might have been exagerated the
costume they wore could not have been an invention. Why would it be?
Simply to support an idee fixe that Poles were poor and modelled
themselves more on distant Muslims than on nearby Bohemians,
Hungarians, Germans, etc..
That Serbs fought for Poland is shown by the account books mentioned
by Brzezinski in the piece I quoted.
If I may return to an earlier example you quoted to support your
thesis thatall representations pf Poles in the Middle Ages are wrong
and that Matejko was right, the artist of the 14th century "legend of
St. Jadwiga" in the four frames that deal with the battle of Liegnitz
shows in the first frame Tartars wearing only phrygian style helmets
for protection, shooting their bows at the Christian host that has
some knights wearing crested helms and others bascinets. Their
heraldry is correct including the arms of Silesia, Grzymala and
Rogala. To the rear of the host can be seen unarmoured peasants armed
with cudgels and polearms. To the front of the Christian arrray are
two small figures, infantrymen bearing the black cross of the
Ordenstaat on their shields.
In the second frame the Tartars are drawing their sabres and using
their spears. Henry Duke of Silesia, the son of St. Jadwiga, is
shown both receiving his death blow and as a corpse, his severed head
wearing the cap of a Duke of the Holy Roman Empire. Around him lie
the dead peasants of the first frame in a touching equality.
in the third frame the Tartars appear before the walls of Liegnitz,
Henry's head upon a spear still wearing his Ducal cap. Two
crossbowmen shoot at the Tartars and wound some of them. The knights
of the garrison seem to wear only their great helms, which would seem
sensible as they are peering over the walls and not resisting an
escalade.
The fourth frame is of purely religious significance.
This is far from, "a technically accomplished Silesian miniature shows
the entire Mongol-Tatar army at Legnica dressed in magnificent German
armor. "
All in all the artist has represented as accurately as could be
expected the military equipment of the early 14th century albeit to
illustrate a battle of nearly a century earlier.
Medieval artists did not normallly distort the dress of their own
time, they rather depicted people of all previous times in it.
The pictures can be seen on pages 20 and 21 of, A history of Poland in
Painting, by Janusz Wal~ek (Interpress, Warsaw 1991).
On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:40:01 -0500, you wrote:
>First let me say the exact origin of the word "hussar" is cloaked in uncertainty. Some believe it comes from the Hungarian word "husz" ("20").
>Others say it's a Slavic slang term for "brigand" or "thief." No one can even firmly establish that the first mercenaries were Serbs, as opposed to Croats. (They speak the same language and Croatia had long been a possession of Hungary.) Short fur hats were (still are) worn in the Balkans and Hungary, but none has the huge "top-hat" look of those in the Orsza painting. In any case by the time the Hungarian hussars served as a model for the organized Polish cavalry, they had become thoroughly Magyarized The Polish husaria as we know it became a permanent institution during the reign of Stefan Bathory). Anything "Serb" has nothing to do with Polish armor or apparel, which is overwhelmingly Turkic. By the way I believe I've located the turbaned hussar helmet you have in mind. In fact it recently circulated with the recent "Land of the Winged Horsemen" exhibit. It's a part of the Wawel Collection, and was purchased in 1935 in Lwow from Tadeusz Wierzejski. It consists o!
f a small
>cap with scales, and a tight red turban wrapped around it. It's one of several Polish turbaned helmets, but only one of countless similar Islamic turbaned helmets. The oldest example I can find is one painted in 1224, in or near Bagdad, by Abdallah Ibn Al-Fadl, now in the British Museum. It features a concise turban of the same proportions as Matejko's. Like Matejko's, it's it's covered in brass-studded scales, and like Matejko's, its pinnacle tube (for feathers) has a rounded collar at its base. Islamic armor is remarkably consistent through space and time. It allows for creative variation, but not much, from Morocco to India, and from the 19th to at least the 11th century. Also, an entire studded scale suit, including pants, can be seen on a warrior depicted on a 12th-century Syrian cup from Al-Mina. An Islamic scholar of military art, would find it difficult to distinguish Commonwealth Eastern armor. Actually much of it was crafted by Armenian artisans in the T!
urkish
>tradition. During centuries of combat with Turks and Tatars, much armor was captured and recycled. The appeal of Eastern armor to Poles lies in the fact that it's cheap. More than a half dozen misiurki can be made from a single damaged mail shirt and a few simple metal discs. (Even I can make a scale shirt and matching scale helmet from about 30 lbs. of 2-inch washers and a roll of wire.)
>
>>>> <> 03/05/01 07:25PM >>>
> Where to begin?
> The steel bards on the Poles, horses are the type normal in western
>Europe at the time and are not ankle length.
> The metallic fronts to the coats of the light cavalry are metallic
>lace and the hats have silver and gold hatbands. The hats are the
>headwear typical of this type of balkan mercenary cavalry and was also
>worn by Albanian stradiots in Venetian and other services at the time.
>
> The wing shield was typical of both Ottoman and other Balkan cavalry
>of the period.
> I see no reason to presume either especial intelligence or especial
>poverty among Sixteenth Century Poles.
> Why would a Cracow artist of whatever "nationality" be correct, as
>he is, in depicting Serbian and Russian costume and yet have to
>attribute Western costume to Poles; a costume from his supposed
>homeland, which, according to your account, he does not even
>understand, viz supposed ankle length skirts?
> You seem to have very badly mistaken the date and origin of
>Hussars in Poland.
> If I may quote Ryszart Brzezinski's excellent work, Polish Armies
>1569-1696 (1) (Osprey, London, 1987).
> "The hussar originated in Serbia towards the end of the 14th century.
>There are references to hussars in Poland in treasury returns of 1500,
>though they were probably in Polish service before this date.
> These early formations were foreign mercenaries, first known as
>Racowie from the term Rascia, 'Serbia', from the original centre of
>the Serbian state, Ras. The term 'hussar' probably originates not -
>as has been widely published - from any connections with the Hungarian
>husz meaning 'twenty', but from gusar, a Slavonic word meaning
>'bandit'. This gives a fairly vivid idea of the nature of the early
>hussars - they were a light cavalry fighting in the style of bands of
>robbers. From surviving pictorial sources of the early hussars we can
>see they were dressed in Hungarian fashion, frequently wearing the
>magierka (Hungarian cap), and at first no defensive armour. They
>fought in a supporting role for the cumbersome Western-style knights
>then predominant in Poland. As armoured knights were gradually phased
>out the hussars took their place, donning first ring-mail, helmets,
>and then plate armour."
> The work is still in print, I believe and every self-respecting Pole
>should try to own a copy of it and its companion volume... the plug is
>in lieu of royalties!
> Regards,
> John.
> (John Rohde).
>
>
>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:46:10 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>The well-known painting of the Battle of Orsza by an anonymous artist, now hanging in the national museum in Warsaw is peculiar indeed. It was clearly painted by an artist, who had little or no first-hand information about Polish-Lithuanian military culture. He seems to have learned of the battle through sketchy second-hand reports. Judging from the painting's very Western costumes, the painter was likely German, French, Flemish or even English. The Polish light cavalry is shown wearing fur "beefeater"-type hats. No doubt a native had described Lithuanian "kuczma" hats to the artist as "fur hats narrower at the base, than at the top," from which the artist inferred that they must have been the sort worn today by the Vatican's Swiss guards, but made of fur. Unable to imagine, that one would go into battle with such a hat, the hats are given thick protective bands of metal. Polish kontusze (outer coats with split sleeves) often had decorative pieces of braid attached !
t!
>o!
>> the breast extending horizontally from the buttons. The artist of the Orsza painting fuses these together with the buttons as if to form a strange metallic vest. Many other knights fill the painting with horses, not only clad in full armor, but with steel skirts extending to the horses' ankles! These same steel-clad knights and horses are pictured successfully fording a river!!! Needless to say, this work of art is pure fantasy. The only detail, which rings true, is the Hungarian "wing" shield born by the Polish hussars. Islamic shields in all periods are either circular or drop-shaped. They are unblazoned but the drop-shaped shields traditionally receive diagonal striped designs. The Hungarian "wing" shield is simply an inverted drop-shaped given much more angularity in Poland. In Poland, as in Hungary, the lack of blazonry was preserved, with perhaps one exception. In the so-called "Stockholm Roll," (a long painting of a Polish military parade, captured by the !
S!
>w!
>>edes, but recently returned to Poland) one hussar carries a "wing" shi
>>victories at Legnica and Grunwald were triumphs of intelligent poverty. The primary lesson learned was: When confronted by a heavily armored knight on an understandably sluggish heavily armored horse, at a safe distance circle the slow-moving metal hulk, until one of your arrows connects with a horse's foot, at which time the entire "tank" comes crashing to the ground. To prevent this from happening to you, wear only enough armor to protect your head and vital organs, and keep your animal moving.
>>
>>>>> <> 03/02/01 09:32PM >>>
>>Hello Leon,
>> I am afraid that you really are barking up the
>>wrong tree here. In 1597 Hussar panoply was standard in Poland so the
>>artist has depicted Poles as he new them. "German" equipment was
>>still at that time the three quarter plate that was to remain in use
>>until late in the Seventeenth Century. Contemporary English wooodcuts
>>show Elisabethan dress being worn at Agincourt etc. and are equally
>>worthless as evidence. The Hussar had not been thought of in Poland
>>at the time of Grunwald/Tannenberg. The type has Balkan origins and
>>the name was derived from mercenary Serbs of precisely the type
>>depicted in the Orsza picture.
>> By 1597 the Husaria was distinct from the pistol armed Reiter
>>cavalry that had become the German fashion. Both German and Polish
>>forces had changed and would continue to change divergently since the
>>first third of the Sixteenth Century. Reiter did figure in Polish
>>armies but as part of the "Foreign Autorament". Ryszart Brzezinskis
>>excellent book takes as its starting date the clear replacement of the
>>Knight of the old style by the Husar, Cossack, etc. which was
>>confirmed by the accession of the Transylvanian, Bathory. The fashion
>>conscious Hussar comrades were highly unlikely to sport out of date
>>equipment, a point which Ryszart makes in his books and articles. It
>>is something of a bugbear of his, the notion that the Poles turned out
>>in random and obsolete paraphenalia. Husar comrades were well off men
>>and well able to keep up appearances in "the most beautiful cavalry in
>>the World".
>> BIelski tells us no more about Polish dress at Grunwald/Tannenberg
>>than Holinshed tells us of Scottish dress at the time of Macbeth. I
>>still cannot understand how you can explain the knights in maximillian
>>style armour who form the native Polish chivalry at the Orsza.
>> If you have a copy of Adam Zamoyskis, The Polish Way, to hand you
>>can find opposite page 102 a miniature taken from the Ceremonial of
>>Erazm Ciolek, Bishop of Plock. In the foreground the banners of
>>Poland and Lithuania are held by knights in the normal European armour
>>of c.1510 when the thing was painted by a Cracow artist.
>> In the c.1500, Punishment of Unfaithful Wives, part of a tryptych
>>from Cracow Cathedral, now at the syate Art Collections at Wawel, by a
>>artist of the circle of theMaster of the Legend of St. John the
>>Almoner, a soldier is depicted in typical harness for a footsoldier
>>anywhere in Europe.
>> I can see no reason to disregard such evidence except a mistaken
>>popular conception that Poles were impoverished compared to their
>>Western neighbours. Lithuanians, Ruthenians and Tartars would have
>>had their own forms of dress and equipment but the Eastern and South
>>Eastern influences that so shaped the then united Polish-Lithuanian
>>Commonwealth had not yet come into play in the Poland of 1410, only
>>recently and only very tenuously united to the vast Lithuanian empire.
>> The evidence you cite for sabres etc. is perfectly correct for the
>>period from which it dates but the Polish cavalier of the second half
>>of the Sixteenth Century was no more the same as his early Fifteenth
>>Century predecessor than was the pistol packing German Reiter of the
>>same period.
>> Regards,
>> John.
>> .
>>
>>
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