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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-03 > 0984107096
From:
Subject: Re: Gear at Grunwald
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:04:56 GMT
References: <saa7be52.043@mail.walterhav.com>
In-Reply-To: <saa7be52.043@mail.walterhav.com>
As you have said yourself, Poland was a major market for the export of
armour from Germany. Yes, the art of the time would probably
concentrate on the high born and influential. As you seem to say
yourself there is an qual paucity of good or complete in pther
countries in places such as Scandinavia - though a fair amount was
unearthed at Wisby as I recall. Neither I nor anybody else can say
what was worn by those of whom we have no record but when the art made
at the time in Poland shows 15th century Poles wearing Western style
clothing, I see no reason to infer that they wore islamic styles -
except that the Poles of the later Sixteenth century and after would
tend toward them. This is not reason enough. The paucity of good
armour in Scandinavia does not lead us to believe that the chivalry of
those countries aimed at anything other than the Western standard.
This debate is becoming terribly tangled. The question has never
been, were all 15th century Polish (or any other) fighters all
equipped in the full knightly panoply but whether the sarmatian style
gear depicted by Matejko on even the wealthiest Poles, is accurate.
The Orsza painting shows various troop types in their national
apparel and I still see no reason to believe that rather than
enhancing the glamour and wealth of the his protagonists, the artist
has chosen to invent them. I am asked to replace doubt with
supposition - based on what? A Romantic painting.
Ryszart Brzezinski, who himself tends to the famine rather than
feast view of Polands military preparedness at the time - more so than
myself - told me the following anecdote:
"I was told this by Zdzislaw Zygulski jr, former curator of the
Czartoryski collection in Krakow, one of the top Polish collections
with vast holdings, inter alia of karacena scale armour.
An arms & armour enthusiast once quizzed Matejko about the reality of
the depictions of weaponry and armour on his Grunwald painting.
Surely there were no Pancerni or winged hussars at Grunwald; the
picture was clearly inaccurate?
Matejko was honest: 'Well, perhaps Polish soldiers of that period
didn't quite look like that', he replied, 'but that's how they SHOULD
have looked!'"
As I said above, Ryszart's impression is that Polish armour was not of
the high quality that paintings would have us believe. I myself
believe that the art may well omit the social inferior and
backwoodsman in favour of the man about town but I cannot readily
accept that Polish armies were so shabbily equipped that they did not
compare with their German adversaries in the 15th Century wars.
The point is dificult to prove and is one of degree. What would
require proof is the thesis that Sarmatian styles were worn in Poland
in the 15th century or that Polish chivalry were primarily horse
archers at that time. I have seen no evidence for either in this
discussion. The existence of oriental styles in Tartary cuts no more
ice than the existence of Western styles in Germany and among the
Hussite mercenaries who bulked so large in Polands wars, pro and
contra, at the time. That the art of the time is not a statistical
sample, I conceed; I have never maintained otherwise. A battle
painting by Phillipoteaux or Lejeune is not a documentary photograph
either, but I do not suppose that the Chevauxleger Polonaise of
Napoleons Garde Imperiale wore the kontusz or carried composite bows.
regards, John
(Rohde).
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