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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-03 > 0984194704
From:
Subject: Re: Gear at Grunwald
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:25:04 GMT
References: <saa8b3eb.072@mail.walterhav.com>
In-Reply-To: <saa8b3eb.072@mail.walterhav.com>
If we are to take the clan marks as pre medieval, are you saying that
the East of Cracow there was an ethnic divide? If you are, I suppose
the old thesis that the White Croats of Little Poland were originally
Iranian Sarmatians might apply. In any event, if these marks are
ancient one would not expect a cultural tide to change them but rather
the context of their representation.
This debate seems to wander from a gulf of inches to one of miles. If
"Silesian" influence extended to Cracow and if I agree that Masovia
and Kujavia looked to the east if not to Islam, Scythia or Assyria but
to Lithuania and the Russian principalities, what remains? I have
cited in a previous posting that a typicallly Germnanic klappvisier
helmet was found in Sandomierz and it is only the South East corner
that about which we differ. That a helmet was lost there does not
prove that its owner was from Sandomierz of course but it can hardly
of been other than some sort of Pole who was wearing it.
On the other hand, you seem to be maintaining that all
pre-Sarmatian representations are wrong and that you know in some
detail what the armour that is not represented would have looked like.
This is a yawning gulf.
regards,
John (Rohde).
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:43:27 -0500, you wrote:
>No. We are not in agreement that Poland was in large part under Silesian influence. Silesian influence trails off quickly beyond perhaps Cracow. This is well-documented by Polish heraldic practice in which coats of arms are cease to be pictographic and become simple and formulaic northward and eastward.. Beyond Silesia and the Warta watershed, heraldic charges become barely disguised or outright Asian tamgi (abstract geometric property markings). During the medieval period, even some western Polish seals contain no heraldic elements whatsoever, only a property mark and the Latinized name of its owner.
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