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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-05 > 0988805176


From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:06:16 +0200
References: <F273geDKvPEkGhAj5p1000128ca@hotmail.com>


Thanking Mr. MacGregor for his kind reply, I have to admit I don't trust
Gimbutiene's scholarship. I think it is tainted by a good deal of what Mr.
Zincavage has rightfully criticized on the concurrent list LITVANIA, namely,
ethn-nationalistic propaganda. Surely there are gasps among the
Lithuaniophiles as I wrote this. I think the situation is rather more
complicated.

The Balts were in contact with the Finns and certainly with the Huns or
Alans, the Cumens and so on. That doesn't mean the Magyar-Vogul-Ostyak myths
have Baltic origins and shouldn't be construed to mean that. It seems all
the more likely it is the other way around: the Balts and Finns sprang from
a Central Asian homeland and share the same idea for the Milky Way, not
inhabited by cows but the Highway of the Birds. Why is that more probable? I
think because the Milky Way, the Way of the Birds, is more common among the
eastern peoples, and the galaxy really does serve as a highway sign leading
from Central Asia to the Russian Steppe and the Crimean during the summer.
Surely the immigration was from East to West for the Balts as it was later
for the Huns, Csuba, Baty et al.

Horsemen without equal are the Scythians and Sarmatians, and yet the
Bulghars seem to have introduced the rider on his steed as a symbol of state
or authority. Again, horses seem to have spread from Central Asia towards
Europe, not the other way around.

Tarim mummies... Does that refer to the finds in Takla Makan at Turfan and
elsewhere? I don't think the case is at all settled they were Scythians or
Sarmatians, but it is quite interesting to note the continuity in certain
animal motifs in relief art from Thracia through Scythia to Tibet. A similar
continuity seems to underly some of the graphic arts from Persia to Japan.

I think if anything the Tocharians show there was an Indo-European presence
in the Far East, but not that they were wayward Celts of one kind or
another. More likely the Celts were wayward Tocharians, if you follow me.
Oddly, Finnish shares a good deal with Japanese, while it also shares a lot
with Lithuanian. Maybe there was an original unity somewhere north of Takla
Makan.

It is not entirely beside the point to again state the presence of tamgos in
the Polish-Lithuanian herbai, and that classical writers have placed
Sarmatia on the eastern Caspian.

Geoffrey

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel MacGregor" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz


> This is strictly off the top of my head, but I'd recommend reading the
works
> of the Lithuanian anthropologist Marija Gimbutas. The expansion of the
> ancient Balts (or their forebears) took them into what is now Finno-Ugric
> territory, so that it is not entirely impossible for the
Magyar/Vogul/Ostiak
> (or Khanty/Mansi) myths to have had Baltic origins.
>
> On the other hand, the horsemen par excellence are the Scythians and
> Sarmatians, on the steppes south of the Baltic homelands. Thanks to the
> recent works on the Tarim mummies, we know their influence extends as far
as
> China, Korea, and Japan, so why not the Balts and Finns as well?
>
> Daniel MacGregor
>
>
> >From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
> >To:
> >Subject: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
> >Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:39:06 +0200
> >
> >Do any of the correspondents in Poland know of the horse statue in Lodz?
> >Why
> >is this a "celestial" horse? Sorry if this is off-topic, but it relates
to
> >something I've been looking into, the origin of the Lithuanian crest of
> >state, the rider Vytis. Hungarian origin myths point to a national origin
> >among the Vogul-Ostyak tribes and the idea of a celestial mare who rides
> >the
> >Milky Way, or Way of the Birds, features in the picture. In one of the
> >variants, when the celestial horse alights upon the earth, golden plates
> >are
> >left where the hooves have touched the ground. Is there any conenction
with
> >the statue in Lodz?
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Geoffrey
> >
> >
> >==============================
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