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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-05 > 0988841358


From: "Daniel MacGregor" <>
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:09:18 -0500


From a linguistic point of view, there are two hypotheses that place
Indo-European and Ural-Altaic into a larger language macrofamily, either
Nostratic (which also includes Afro-Asiatic, Kartvelian, and Dravidian) or
Eurasiatic (which doeds not). Conceivably, Eurasiatic could be a daughter
or granddaughter language of Nostratic, if the two greoups ewanted to work
out the bugs in their theories.

So who can say how far back in time these folktales extend.

No, the Tocharoi were not Scythians or Sarmatians, but there was an eastern
group of Iranian tribes, the Sakas, that may have made contact with the far
eastern peoples. Like the Kushan/Tocharoi, they eventually migrated
westward again, and wound up in India.

Incidentally, the Tocharoi wove twills and tartans, and Western linguists
tend to group them with the Italo-Celtic branch of Indo-European.

Never looked at Gimbutas deeply enough to see if there was a specific
prejudice to her writings. (With ethnology and anthropology, unfortunately,
it would come as no surprise.)

I do suspect that she was right when she dated the northern expansion of
Slavdom into what is now Byelorussia and the western oblasts of "Great"
Russia as occurring later in history than the Slavicists have argued.

Daniel MacGregor


>From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
>Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:06:16 +0200
>
>Thanking Mr. MacGregor for his kind reply, I have to admit I don't trust
>Gimbutiene's scholarship. I think it is tainted by a good deal of what Mr.
>Zincavage has rightfully criticized on the concurrent list LITVANIA,
>namely,
>ethn-nationalistic propaganda. Surely there are gasps among the
>Lithuaniophiles as I wrote this. I think the situation is rather more
>complicated.
>
>The Balts were in contact with the Finns and certainly with the Huns or
>Alans, the Cumens and so on. That doesn't mean the Magyar-Vogul-Ostyak
>myths
>have Baltic origins and shouldn't be construed to mean that. It seems all
>the more likely it is the other way around: the Balts and Finns sprang from
>a Central Asian homeland and share the same idea for the Milky Way, not
>inhabited by cows but the Highway of the Birds. Why is that more probable?
>I
>think because the Milky Way, the Way of the Birds, is more common among the
>eastern peoples, and the galaxy really does serve as a highway sign leading
>from Central Asia to the Russian Steppe and the Crimean during the summer.
>Surely the immigration was from East to West for the Balts as it was later
>for the Huns, Csuba, Baty et al.
>
>Horsemen without equal are the Scythians and Sarmatians, and yet the
>Bulghars seem to have introduced the rider on his steed as a symbol of
>state
>or authority. Again, horses seem to have spread from Central Asia towards
>Europe, not the other way around.
>
>Tarim mummies... Does that refer to the finds in Takla Makan at Turfan and
>elsewhere? I don't think the case is at all settled they were Scythians or
>Sarmatians, but it is quite interesting to note the continuity in certain
>animal motifs in relief art from Thracia through Scythia to Tibet. A
>similar
>continuity seems to underly some of the graphic arts from Persia to Japan.
>
>I think if anything the Tocharians show there was an Indo-European presence
>in the Far East, but not that they were wayward Celts of one kind or
>another. More likely the Celts were wayward Tocharians, if you follow me.
>Oddly, Finnish shares a good deal with Japanese, while it also shares a lot
>with Lithuanian. Maybe there was an original unity somewhere north of Takla
>Makan.
>
>It is not entirely beside the point to again state the presence of tamgos
>in
>the Polish-Lithuanian herbai, and that classical writers have placed
>Sarmatia on the eastern Caspian.
>
>Geoffrey
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Daniel MacGregor" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
>
>
> > This is strictly off the top of my head, but I'd recommend reading the
>works
> > of the Lithuanian anthropologist Marija Gimbutas. The expansion of the
> > ancient Balts (or their forebears) took them into what is now
>Finno-Ugric
> > territory, so that it is not entirely impossible for the
>Magyar/Vogul/Ostiak
> > (or Khanty/Mansi) myths to have had Baltic origins.
> >
> > On the other hand, the horsemen par excellence are the Scythians and
> > Sarmatians, on the steppes south of the Baltic homelands. Thanks to the
> > recent works on the Tarim mummies, we know their influence extends as
>far
>as
> > China, Korea, and Japan, so why not the Balts and Finns as well?
> >
> > Daniel MacGregor
> >
> >
> > >From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
> > >Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:39:06 +0200
> > >
> > >Do any of the correspondents in Poland know of the horse statue in
>Lodz?
> > >Why
> > >is this a "celestial" horse? Sorry if this is off-topic, but it relates
>to
> > >something I've been looking into, the origin of the Lithuanian crest of
> > >state, the rider Vytis. Hungarian origin myths point to a national
>origin
> > >among the Vogul-Ostyak tribes and the idea of a celestial mare who
>rides
> > >the
> > >Milky Way, or Way of the Birds, features in the picture. In one of the
> > >variants, when the celestial horse alights upon the earth, golden
>plates
> > >are
> > >left where the hooves have touched the ground. Is there any conenction
>with
> > >the statue in Lodz?
> > >
> > >Thank you,
> > >
> > >Geoffrey
> > >
> > >
> > >==============================
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>
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