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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-05 > 0988985222


From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:07:02 +0200
References: <saf17a8d.098@mail.walterhav.com>


I don't know, I thing the Lituanica might be wrong despite what common sense
says abotu knights and chivalry emanating from Western Europe. Horses came
from the east and I think the motif might have arrived on horseback from
there too.

There are better images available of the same thing, but there are 2
examples of a Bulgharian "Vytis" at:
http://members.bitex.com/tangra/kalenden.htm#m3to699


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Stevens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz


> I have heard this explanation as well, and the entire matter may remain
under dispute among Lithuanians, however the Encyclopedia Lituanica
continues, "It is not known when or by whom or for what reason this cross
was brought into use. It is found for the first time on a seal of Jogaila
of the year 1388. Some historians conjecture that this cross was designed
to express the union of Lithuania and Poland under the rule of King Jogaila
(1386); but there is no basis of proof for this explanation. It is known
that Vytautas the Great (q.v.), who extorted from his cousin Jogaila the
right to rule Lithuania independently, struck coins with the double cross.
This would show that the sign was connected with independent rule of
Lithuania." Of course there remains the possibility, that the resemblance
of a property sign to Eastern Christian crosses in this instance is merely
coincidental, in which case the symbol may have been reinterpreted in
Christian times and although indige!
> nous, respect for it as a state emblem enhanced by foreign equivalents.
The encyclopedia reproduces four examples of the 14th century coins. On one
side of each, is the "Vytis," very primitively executed, and on the reverse
side of each, 3 "variants" of Gediminas' Columns.
>
> >>> "David Zincavage" <> 05/03/01 12:41PM >>>
> The origin of the Vytis / Pogon Litewska is not really obscure at all.
> Jagiello, upon the occasion of the Polish Union and the conversion of
> Lithuania, adopted new arms as Grand Duke of Lithuania, featuring a
mounted
> knight emblematic of himself. Such mounted sovereigns are found upon
> contemporary seals and coinages of the not only the Dukes of Moscow, but
> upon those of the contemporary kings of England and France as well. The
> charge upon the knight's shield is, in fact, the patriarchal (two-barred)
> cross, which in Jagiello's case, like that of St. Stephen of Hungary, is
> borne as a symbol of the achievement of the conversion of a nation.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Stevens [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:02 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
>
>
> Most Polish-Lithuanian charges originated in abstract property markings
> ("tamgas"), which fact lends our heraldry its unique character. Many
became
> pictographic, partly pictographic, or replaced by unrelated pictographs.
> Unfortunately pictographic symbols such as the Piast eagle and Lithuanian
> "Vytis" ("Chase") are so old, that we may never learn their exact
evolution,
> which lies buried in semi-mythology. The Encyclopedia Lituanica (under
> "Vytis") states, "If on the emblem of Lithuania there is no doubt that the
> armored rider originated from the medieval west, on the other hand, the
> origin of the double or six-pointed cross on the rider's shield is still
> obscure." The original prehistoric owners of the "double cross" may be
> obscure, but the symbol itself is a rather ordinary tamga, identical to
> Swieczyc (2 cross-pieces), and similar to Modziele (3 cross-pieces), Prus
(1
> and a half cross-pieces) or Pilawa (2 and a half) etc. As for the horse
and
> rider, it is true that, f!
> or example Richard Coeur de Lion sealed with a very similar seal (after
> 1159) and changed the shape of the shield and helmet (after 1189). Also,
> closer to home, Swedish Duke Bengt Birgersson used a similar horse and
armed
> rider in 1282, with the charge on his shield fully visible.
Interestingly,
> this charge appears by itself on other Birgersson seals. This suggests,
> that the "Vytis" horse and rider were likely initially added as a design
> feature to early seals, but eventually stuck and became a major part of
the
> charge itself. Konrad Grunenberg of Constance errantly blazoned the
"Vytis"
> shield with his impression of a gate, confusing the charge with the
"Columns
> of Gedimin" ("Gediminas Stulpai"). Amazingly, although it has become
> pictographic in myth and name, the "Stulpai" has nevertheless remained a
> pristine tamga, staunchly resisting the temptation to convert it to a
> pictograph, resembling, for example, the charge of Castile.
>
> >>> "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <> 05/02/01 10:05AM >>>
> Thanking Mr. MacGregor for his kind reply, I have to admit I don't trust
> Gimbutiene's scholarship. I think it is tainted by a good deal of what Mr.
> Zincavage has rightfully criticized on the concurrent list LITVANIA,
namely,
> ethn-nationalistic propaganda. Surely there are gasps among the
> Lithuaniophiles as I wrote this. I think the situation is rather more
> complicated.
>
> The Balts were in contact with the Finns and certainly with the Huns or
> Alans, the Cumens and so on. That doesn't mean the Magyar-Vogul-Ostyak
myths
> have Baltic origins and shouldn't be construed to mean that. It seems all
> the more likely it is the other way around: the Balts and Finns sprang
from
> a Central Asian homeland and share the same idea for the Milky Way, not
> inhabited by cows but the Highway of the Birds. Why is that more probable?
I
> think because the Milky Way, the Way of the Birds, is more common among
the
> eastern peoples, and the galaxy really does serve as a highway sign
leading
> from Central Asia to the Russian Steppe and the Crimean during the summer.
> Surely the immigration was from East to West for the Balts as it was later
> for the Huns, Csuba, Baty et al.
>
> Horsemen without equal are the Scythians and Sarmatians, and yet the
> Bulghars seem to have introduced the rider on his steed as a symbol of
state
> or authority. Again, horses seem to have spread from Central Asia towards
> Europe, not the other way around.
>
> Tarim mummies... Does that refer to the finds in Takla Makan at Turfan and
> elsewhere? I don't think the case is at all settled they were Scythians or
> Sarmatians, but it is quite interesting to note the continuity in certain
> animal motifs in relief art from Thracia through Scythia to Tibet. A
similar
> continuity seems to underly some of the graphic arts from Persia to Japan.
>
> I think if anything the Tocharians show there was an Indo-European
presence
> in the Far East, but not that they were wayward Celts of one kind or
> another. More likely the Celts were wayward Tocharians, if you follow me.
> Oddly, Finnish shares a good deal with Japanese, while it also shares a
lot
> with Lithuanian. Maybe there was an original unity somewhere north of
Takla
> Makan.
>
> It is not entirely beside the point to again state the presence of tamgos
in
> the Polish-Lithuanian herbai, and that classical writers have placed
> Sarmatia on the eastern Caspian.
>
> Geoffrey
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel MacGregor" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
>
>
> > This is strictly off the top of my head, but I'd recommend reading the
> works
> > of the Lithuanian anthropologist Marija Gimbutas. The expansion of the
> > ancient Balts (or their forebears) took them into what is now
Finno-Ugric
> > territory, so that it is not entirely impossible for the
> Magyar/Vogul/Ostiak
> > (or Khanty/Mansi) myths to have had Baltic origins.
> >
> > On the other hand, the horsemen par excellence are the Scythians and
> > Sarmatians, on the steppes south of the Baltic homelands. Thanks to the
> > recent works on the Tarim mummies, we know their influence extends as
far
> as
> > China, Korea, and Japan, so why not the Balts and Finns as well?
> >
> > Daniel MacGregor
> >
> >
> > >From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
> > >Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:39:06 +0200
> > >
> > >Do any of the correspondents in Poland know of the horse statue in
Lodz?
> > >Why
> > >is this a "celestial" horse? Sorry if this is off-topic, but it relates
> to
> > >something I've been looking into, the origin of the Lithuanian crest of
> > >state, the rider Vytis. Hungarian origin myths point to a national
origin
> > >among the Vogul-Ostyak tribes and the idea of a celestial mare who
rides
> > >the
> > >Milky Way, or Way of the Birds, features in the picture. In one of the
> > >variants, when the celestial horse alights upon the earth, golden
plates
> > >are
> > >left where the hooves have touched the ground. Is there any conenction
> with
> > >the statue in Lodz?
> > >
> > >Thank you,
> > >
> > >Geoffrey
> > >
> > >
> > >==============================
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