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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-05 > 0989071554


From: "Geoffrey Vasiliauskas" <>
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:05:54 +0200
References: <saf302b9.065@mail.walterhav.com> <002101c0d561$7c835660$06eacad0@cntwk.net>


Parallel evolution and selection by media used is a good theory. Runic and
similar scripts avoid horizontal lines because of the grain of the wood they
were carved upon. Tamga in Central Asia were brands for livestock, and thus
have to be programmable in iron or similar material. At the same time,
suggesting spontaneous evolution in separate centers does avoid the sticky
issue of the East's perpetual cultural influence on the European project.
The ancient pagan European symbols don't figure in the tamga: where's the
swirlpool, the swastika, Mara, Lightning and the others?

If it were a case of phonemes, if there were say just 44 elements to be
combined, I would agree: given enough time all traces of a Nostratic could
be lost in the shuffle, and any sort of Nostratic could be postulated, if
not convincingly, at least thoroughly. But the tamga I have seen in the CoAs
and the Turkic tribes are distinct and correspond.

Yes, there are cave paintings of horses from the neolithic in Europe. But no
riders.

Horses, books and metals reached our Eastern European ancestors from the
East, not the West.



----- Original Message -----
From: "A Jendrzejewski" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz


> I am a visual artist that is here to mostly lurk to
> learn. My commenting about anything regarding
> heraldry would be ludicrous. But as an artist, I do
> like Leon's comment here, as drowsy as he was when
> he wrote it, about the possibility of a spontaneous
> formation of tamga images into more pictographic
> forms. That seems highly possible, and could be
> viewed either as an isolated incident, or as an
> inspiration combined with influences of horsemen
> from the east or images from the west.
>
> I take the liberty in saying this because my
> impression about the comments regarding the Grunwald
> painting disgcussed earlier on this list seemed like
> they were getting much too literal, much too rigid
> and much too presumptuous about the artist's intent,
> his resources and his concern for accuracy of that
> time period. While I was uncomfortable with some of
> the statements made, I have had no time to study
> this issue or refine this contribution. I offer it
> merely as my gut feeling from the point of view as a
> contemporary artist who has studied some art
> history. In the present discussion about tamgas
> (tamgi?), I thought I would assert this gut feeling
> as a caution now, before the group got too carried
> away with their interpretations. Please do not
> misunderstand me, I love the speculations and
> theories that have been presented in both the
> Grunwald and the present topic. But as long as they
> are specualations and theories, I think Leon is
> justified --and probably correct-- making room for
> that possibility of creative spontaneity that he
> noted.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Leon Stevens
> To:
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
>
> ...snip...
> My speculation occasionally runs wild, and I admit
> there is absolutely no concrete foundation for this
> theory, but tamgas, especially on hard surfaces are
> often carelessly drawn (carved), and if the outlying
> vertical lines of the Gediminas stulpai were
> occasionally overextended below the main horizontal
> line, the tamga might evoke the image of a horse and
> rider. (It's standard current versio!
> n looks more like a man in a canoe.) It's clear
> from several surviving pure tamgas and their
> corresponding pictographic versions, that medieval
> Poles and Lithuanians had very creative
> imaginations. But it's late and I'm getting drowsy,
> which may be why my imagination is beginning to take
> off.
>
>
>
>
>
> ==============================
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