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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2001-05 > 0989245431


From: "Leon Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:24:55 -0400


Thank you for your kind comments, however as for my equating the Gediminas stulpai and Vytis as possibly the same symbol, this could be easily disputed and I haven't a shred of evidence to support my notion. My main point is that we can't discount the possibility, that the horse and rider are pictographs of some eclipsed and forgotten tamga. My gut feeling is that it is western, but my mind urges a degree of caution. As for the painting of Grunwald, there can be no questioning the fact that this work is highly symbolic. Obviously the key players in the struggle, couldn't have been within a few feet of each other, like college freshmen piled up in a phone booth, but I believe that the eclecticism of the armor, and the lack of armor, well characterizes the actual battle, and the oriental element may well have been more genuinely represented, than even Matejko himself realized.

>>> "A Jendrzejewski" <> 05/05/01 09:40AM >>>
I am a visual artist that is here to mostly lurk to
learn. My commenting about anything regarding
heraldry would be ludicrous. But as an artist, I do
like Leon's comment here, as drowsy as he was when
he wrote it, about the possibility of a spontaneous
formation of tamga images into more pictographic
forms. That seems highly possible, and could be
viewed either as an isolated incident, or as an
inspiration combined with influences of horsemen
from the east or images from the west.

I take the liberty in saying this because my
impression about the comments regarding the Grunwald
painting disgcussed earlier on this list seemed like
they were getting much too literal, much too rigid
and much too presumptuous about the artist's intent,
his resources and his concern for accuracy of that
time period. While I was uncomfortable with some of
the statements made, I have had no time to study
this issue or refine this contribution. I offer it
merely as my gut feeling from the point of view as a
contemporary artist who has studied some art
history. In the present discussion about tamgas
(tamgi?), I thought I would assert this gut feeling
as a caution now, before the group got too carried
away with their interpretations. Please do not
misunderstand me, I love the speculations and
theories that have been presented in both the
Grunwald and the present topic. But as long as they
are specualations and theories, I think Leon is
justified --and probably correct-- making room for
that possibility of creative spontaneity that he
noted.


----- Original Message -----
From: Leon Stevens
To:
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Celestial Horse statue in Lodz

...snip...
My speculation occasionally runs wild, and I admit
there is absolutely no concrete foundation for this
theory, but tamgas, especially on hard surfaces are
often carelessly drawn (carved), and if the outlying
vertical lines of the Gediminas stulpai were
occasionally overextended below the main horizontal
line, the tamga might evoke the image of a horse and
rider. (It's standard current versio!
n looks more like a man in a canoe.) It's clear
from several surviving pure tamgas and their
corresponding pictographic versions, that medieval
Poles and Lithuanians had very creative
imaginations. But it's late and I'm getting drowsy,
which may be why my imagination is beginning to take
off.





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