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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2005-02 > 1107967088


From: "David Zincavage" <>
Subject: Re: Kot Morski arms
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:38:08 -0800
References: <2409A35B3E1C8D4D929583798DF5AA780359562F@whmail01.walterhav.com>


The list of seals published by Semkowicz, which is on my web page in
translation, lists the Kot morski seal as that Wojsnar Wilkolewcz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Stevens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: Kot Morski arms


> Szymanski shows Kot Morski according to a seal of Wojsnar Werkolewicz <

Szymanski does not identify the source of his illustration, but it's
probably Paprocki. The seal on the Horodlo treaty is that of the unknown
Polish adopting party, not Werkolewicz. Szymanski says Kot Morski
disappeared in the 16th century. Heymowski offers the possibility that a
seal with a poorly articulated quadruped like the Lewart lion (or the
impression of a seal clogged with wax) may have been misinterpreted as a
"kot morski" somewhere along the way, perhaps by its owner, maybe by some
herald or imaginative amateur. There are in fact a few extant seals
(impressions) with poorly delineated cat-like creatures as their charges
including a supposed variant of Gryzima with only one fox(?).

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:52 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Kot Morski arms


Yes, i have got Your mail. Thank You very much.
And all list members, that write about arms Kot Morski too. Simply - this
e'mail is my "work" e'mail and now i'm on vacation and come today only for
a one deal.

Shortly, what i can say - i agree with David, that "I think these arms
(being pictorial and having a name which appears to be a translated from
the German) were probably imported into Poland from
Germany by an immigrant family.

Second thing - at von Domeneck, von Hellmaister and von Steinwag coa's
charge is mostly egual to shown Kot Morski in Józef Szymański "Herbarz
średniowiecznego Rycerstwa Polskiego", 1993 (
http://www.geocities.com/wojszwillo/herbas.htm ). I have info, that
Szymanski shows Kot Morski according to a seal of Wojsnar Werkolewicz on
Horodlo union, i.e. a beast is standing and belted (as in von Steinwag,
von Hellmaister arms). In von Domeneck arms beast is not belted.

Maybe we can go from the "other side" - what for families was on Horodlo
from Polish side? From Lithuanian side there was a most powerfull nobles
(by other historician - a court of grand duke Vytautas). From Polish side
we see also a most powerfull nobles. And one of them (at least) - a noble,
that bears Kot Morski arms, very rare Polish arms at all.
We dont have any info, 1) what was this polish powerfull noble, 2) why
earlearst record about this arms is only from Horodlo union and mentioned
only lithuanian noble Wojsznar, i.e. where in polish records before
Horodlo union is this powerfull polish family?
How long it can take, to a noble family in Poland at this time become a
powerhouse (one of 50-60 families in Poland)? 50-100 years? Its very
strange, that we have'nt any record from a long period.

Can it be, that from Polish side was a noble, that only in reign of
Jagiello become power (here can be and a former "foreigner") and maybe a
noble, that was from Order teritories, that Poland gains from Order after
the War in 1410-1411?

Regards,


Marius Kaubrys





Klaus Liwowsky <>
Sent by:
2005.02.08 08:27

To

cc

Subject
Kot Morski arms






It seems that rootsweb servers were shut down during the weekend. I don't
know if Mr. Kaubrys got my mail:

http://www.geocities.com/adwrz1h/extra/meercat.html





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