IRL-CORK-L Archives

Archiver > IRL-CORK > 2000-02 > 0951083668


From: "William M. Lane" <>
Subject: Naming Convention
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:54:28 +0000


This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------B39BF558D57F00802AB19679
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear Agnes,

Griffith's is not a census, nor a listing of all living persons,
it is a survey of taxable people and if you were untaxable
Griffith just was not interested in you. Griffith's is a listing
of all head of household occupiers of property when the survey
was taken and as such Edmund does not have a chance of a snowball
in hell of appearing on this list. When it was taken your Edmund
was a child and maybe not living in Knockgraffon but elsewhere
with his father and mother. If you want to look at Griffith's you
should be looking up Edmund's father. Do you have his name? If
not do you have the name of Edmund's eldest son because he was
almost certainly called after his father. Irish parents always
followed a fairly rigid naming convention that is one of the most
essential tools in tracing your Irish ancestors. I have published
this about ten times on this site over the last six months but
here it is again:

The naming convention is as follows:
'The first son born was normally (98% of the time) given the same
Christian name as his father's father; the first girl was given
the name of her mother's mother. The second son was given the
name of his father. The second girl her mother's name. The third
son was given the mother's father's name. The third girl the
father's mother's name. After that the traditional family names
were used - it explains why the same names get repeated time and
time again. The above rule was not followed if it meant that
three people living in the house would have the same name. This
was regarded as unlucky and one of them would surely die quickly.
If a child died as an infant then often you will find that a
sibling was given the dead child's name. This meant that you
could often find two Thomas children in a family particularly if
the first child was called after his paternal grandfather.

Sometimes the second born son was called after the mother's
father and the second girl born after the father's mother. This
is the only variation I have ever found from this rule.

It was very rare if a RC child was given more than one christian
name. This was only found amongst the rich and landed gentry. Yet
I constantly get requests, from Americans in particular, looking
for detail of an ancestor called 'John Francis Scanlon' for
example. When I go to the Church Baptism and State Birth records
the man only has one christian
name - John. They seem to acquire this extra name in USA and the
only thing that might account for it is that they have started
using their Confirmation name as a second Christian name'.

After sending you the last email I had a quick look at
Knockgraffon and have found that it is actually a medieval
borough only about three miles north of Cahir, three miles south
of New Inn and about seven miles from Cashel. It has a very long
history and there is well documented evidence of rentals going
back to 1200 for the Barony of Knockgraffon. For further
information on this could I refer you to the excellent book
'Tipperary History & Society' by Geography Publications,
Kennington Road, Templeogue, Dublin 6W. ISBN is 0 906602033. It
costs 40. The owners of Geography Publications are Willie Nolan
and his wife. Telephone Number is 353-1-4566085. If you are
talking to them give them my regards.

Bearing in mind that you know your living cousins in the area I
think that the best thing you could do is approach them because
they are bound to have much information that can help you in your
tracing.

God Bless.


Yours Sincerely,



William M. Lane.

Agnes wrote:
>
> Dear William,
> Here's why I requested Edmund O'Donnell:
> There are O'Donnell cousins on my mother's side living in Cahir presently.
> We visited with them in '91 and '98. Sally O'Donnell was married to
> Edward/Ned who was my mother's cousin. Bridget O'Donnell was my mother's
> mother: she was born in Knockgraffon, NewInn, came to NYC, where my
> mother was born. I visited the parish priest in 1991 and together we went
> over the records, me jotting down any that fit. The records showed my gm
> Bridget was born to Edmund O'Donnell & Bridget Barry in 1864, so I thought
> there'd be a GV listing for Edmund, in 1851.
> The deeper I delve into this, the more I realize GV is at best, a very
> partial listing of residents.
> Were you able to open the attachment I sent? Therein lies the explanation
> for my confusion: some say "no Edmunds", others report diff. info.
> Thank you so much for your help!
> Are you in So. Tipp? If so, where?
> Agnes
>
> At 11:47 PM 02/19/2000 +0000, you wrote:
> >Dear Agnes,
> >
> >Thank you for your reply but I do not fully understand your
> >confusion. Let me firstly ask you why you requested a lookup in
> >Griffith's for Edmund O'Donnell? The name O'Donnell, although it
> >is basically a Co. Donegal name, is quite common here in the area
> >of South Tipperary, East Cork and West Waterford. All these areas
> >are within 20 miles of the town of Cahir.
> >
> >God Bless.
> >
> >
> >Yours Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> >William M. Lane.
> >
> >
> >Agnes wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks to all of you for responding to my request to look up Edmund
> >> O'Donnell in GV. However, since for the most part, you've all responded w.
> >> diff. info, I'm confused! I've pasted together all your answers in the
> >> attachment. Please look at it and let me know your best explanation/guess
> >> as to why the differences.
> >> If you have diff. opening attached, please RSVP and I'll send differently.
> >> Thank you,
> >> Agnes in PA
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Name: G'sValEdO'D.doc
> >> G'sValEdO'D.doc Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword)
> >> Encoding: base64
> >Attachment Converted: "e:\eudora\attach\lsc1.vcf"
> >
--------------B39BF558D57F00802AB19679
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="lsc.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for William M. Lane
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="lsc.vcf"

begin:vcard
n:Lane;William M.
tel;cell:353-87-2567128
tel;fax:353-58-60311
tel;home:353-58-60311
tel;work:353-58-60311
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:L. S. C.
adr:;;Ballyduff Upper;Ballyduff;Co. Waterford;;Ireland
version:2.1
email;internet:
title:Mr
fn:Wiliam M. Lane
end:vcard

--------------B39BF558D57F00802AB19679--

This thread: