IRL-LIMERICK-L Archives

Archiver > IRL-LIMERICK > 2001-11 > 1006388205


From: "Padraig O Gealagain" <>
Subject: Re: [LIMERICK] The Grange , The Houses
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:16:45 -0500
References: <B81C62FB.15658%jhayes@world.std.com> <018601c16fdf$617f3000$b3e20ad2@jos> <005e01c17136$08afdbc0$0402a8c0@paddy> <3BFB783E.3040004@ozemail.com.au>


Hello, Nick,

Your 'PDF' has some blank pages, and the info. is not as
clear as I would like it to be. Here's is my take on the
Crokers.
" The first Croker to take up residence in Ireland was
Edward Gill Croker, who was given the lands at Rawleystown
for services rendered to Cromwell, he was killed in the
rebellion of 1641, but his son John lived to be 93 years
old.. It was this John, and namesake, who purchased
Ballinagarde in the 1730's. His first cousin, John Bucknor
Croker was the next owner. He married Anne Richards, and
they had a family of nine. From their fifth son, also named
John, descended Thomas Crofton Croker, the writer and
folklorist. The eldest of the family , Edward Richards
Croker, succeeded in 1751. He married Elizabeth Prittie
of Kilboy, Co. Tipperary in 1726. In 1735 he was appointed
High Sheriff of Co. Limerick. His eldest son, John Prittie
Croker became the next owner.

John Prittie Croker married Sarah Pennefather, daughter of
Richard Pennefather M.P., for Cashel in 1755, at the age of
25, he, in turn was elected High Sheriff. In 1768 he was
elected M.P. for the borough of Fethard.

Edward Pennefather Croker inherited Ballinagarde in 1795..
He married Margaret Hare, daughter of the Archdeacon Hare.
Their son John Hare Croker succeeded in 17 (?). It was
during his time that the saying" I doubt it says Croker was
associated..

John Bagnall Croker, the eldest son of John Hare Croker
succeeded. In 1841 he married Lady Georgina Monck. He is
the spendthrift, until his death in 1869 - a short tenure ,
1858 'till 1869, that the domain got into financial
difficulties. His eldest son, John, died unmarried , in
1889, and was succeeded by his uncle, Henry, the second son
of John Bagnall.

Henry Croker died unmarried in in 1879, and was succeeded
by by Frederick Albert Croker, the third son of Edward
Albert Croker., he married Emly Adelaide Clune, but died
childless in 1900.

Courtney le Poer Croker succeeded. He married his cousin
Mary Hare, daughter of the Archdeacon.. He died in 1933.
The was the beginning of the end to the estate of
Ballinagarde. The house and adjacent land was retained by
someone (?), but the Irish Land Commission acquired the
rest of the estate and sold it in parcels to mainly
original tenants.

That leaves the open question of who was Caroline Croker
and Miss Croker? - a daughter of Courtney le Poer?

No personal replies - reply to LIST only, please. Thank
you.

Padraig+
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Reddan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: [LIMERICK] The Grange , The Houses


> I have put a summary tree of the Ballyneguard CROKER
family at:
>
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nickreddan/trees/Ballyneguar
d.PDF
>
> In it I have highlighted some O'GRADY/GRADY and Grange
Hill connections.
>
> The marriage of the Rev Robert CROKER and Margaret
Catherine O'GRADY
> occurred in 1830 not 1874.
>
> As my CROKERs came to Australia in 1840 I have not done a
lot of
> detailed work on the Limerick CROKERs after 1850.
>
> Regards
>
> Nick
>
> Padraig O Gealagain wrote:
>
> >I am using your response her, Joanne, without any
intended
> >criticism, but there is much supposition in your
answer-
> >probably meant to raise other facts, if so it did!. I
am
> >now quoting ( with personal notes in parenthesis ) :
> >
> >An "... imposing site on the road from Limerick to
Lough
> >Gur is the old ruin called The Grange, seen on the right
> >.."as one approaches the village known as the Hamlet or
> >Sixmilebridge". " There are several houses in Co.
Limerick
> >known as 'The Grange' ". In Castleconnell, Co.
Limerick, a
> >house formerly owned by another branch of the O Grady
> >family ... bears the name"The Grange".
> >
> > "The Grange now applies to a greater area surrounding
the
> >old house, and has somewhat superseded some of the older
> >townland names. Grange is in the Barony of Small County,
> >(on the west side of Lough Gur). In Elizabethan times,
it
> >contained 1,224 acres, and was in the (civil) parish of
> >Manister..."
> >
> >" The house: "
> >" The present three storey ruin is but a humble relic of
> >its former splendour. The grounds comprised of 110 acres
> >which were well planted and included a deer-park,
sloping
> >down to the Camogie river" ( must be a branch of,
because
> >the main Camogie runs about a mile west of Grange and
> >Grange Hill on its westward journey .).
> >"However, this house was the second Grange House. Robert
> >Cussen, in his notes to Caleb Powell's Grand Jury
Records,
> >tells how the second house cam, sic ( came) to be
built:
> >"Thomas O Grady, the Grand Juror, was the son of
Standish O
> >Grady of Grange (the townland) and (of the) Widow
Shepherd.
> >Standish at first lived in an unpretentious farm house
and
> >he coveted a lovely old Ingoldsby mansion with a fine
deer
> >park, called The Grange, which adjoined his lands. But
> >Ingoldsby Massy, the owner, would only sell him (in)
1780 a
> >life use of the place. On Standish's death his son
Thomas
> >succeeded, "The Grange" passed to Count de Salis, and
> >Thomas had to give up possession and build himself a new
> >house, which he perversely named "The Grange" Thomas ...
> >did not marry, and on his death in 1861, his property
> >descended to the Crokers, children of his sister
Margaret,
> >who (had) assumed the name of O Grady, and on the death
of
> >the survivor of them it passed out of the family" ( but
not
> >really, as you will see later - remember that
Margaret's
> >(Croker) O Grady's children were now named O Grady -
alias
> >Croker - although their father was Revd. Robert Croker).
> >
> >"... Caleb Powell (Sheriff for the city and county) in
> >writing his memoirs gave a fascinating insight into the
> >various characters and families around County Limerick.
> >"... (H)e lived at Clonshavoy, near Annacotty and would
> >have had a lot of contact with the O Grady family".
> >
> >(Powell wrote) " I selected Thomas O Grady of The
Grange, a
> >gentleman of mature years, (of) excellent character and
> >independent fortune tho' not holding any considerable
> >position in the locality. I should observe I had applied
> >previously to Sir Vere de Vere to act as foreman but in
> >consequence of his wife's delicate state of health, he
was
> >obliged to reside at Torquay. Thomas O Grady is the son
of
> >Standish O Grady of Grange near Bruff, (a) grandson of a
> >younger brother of the Kilballyowen family. His mother
was
> >a Widow Shepherd ( who was under some obligation to my
> >grandfather ). He succeeded his brother Henry to his
> >(Henry's) estate and altho' of mature years, Mrs. Frend
of
> >Boskill, whose mother was Miss Croker of Ballynagarde,
told
> >me that her mother (her grandmother, Miss Croker's
mother)
> >the said Mrs. Bagwell (had) told her ( Mrs. Frend's
> >mother, Miss Croker?) that Thomas O Grady had been a
swain
> >of hers and that last year he had completed 70 years in
> >which case he must have entered this breathing world in
> >the year of Our Lord 1789,m ( he) assumes a jaunty and
> >juvenile air. In his youth he professed the Roman
Catholic
> >Creed and frequented the chapel of Bruff, with his
father
> >(Standish), but his mother, who "was in the other
> >interest" prevailed her husband to transfer the
children
> >to Church or as his cousin Tom Grady, the poet declared
> >that his cousin Standish of Grange " send(s) his
children
> >to Church thro' fear of his wife and went to Mass
himself
> >for fear of the devil ". This family were tenant farmers
or
> >middlemen on the de Salis estate (of Grange) and a
brother
> >Standish called Nicholas, I believe, or may-hap Thomas,
was
> >called to the Irish Bar and became a successful gambler
in
> >the Clubs of London, and having amassed a considerable
sum
> >of money by play ... devoted himself to the fickle
Goddess
> >and ... incurred losses to the full amount and more of
his
> >original acquisitions he levanted to Paris and committed
> >suicide, bequeathing his ill gotten property to his
> >surviving brother and sisters ... none of whom but
Standish
> >of Grange left issue, and the greater portion fell
> >eventually into the possession of Thomas his son ( who
had
> >but "The Grange" house ) and who in modern times
prefixed
> >the O to his paternal name and he was now, I suppose,
two
> >thousand pounds a year in land and money and a very ugly
> >comfortable mansion on the land of Skule, now called The
> >Grange which was purchased (leased) by Standish from
> >Ingoldsby Massy between 60 and 70 years ago after which
he
> >(Thomas) erected his present mansion ..." This
gentleman
> >who resembles his cousin the poet in one respect ,
namely
> >being an indefatigable quality hunter, I made Foreman
for
> >which he thanked me in very warm and insincere terms as
I
> >have since ascertained".
> >" One of the Kilballyowen O Grady's was Thomas, Snr.,
whose
> >son Nicholas married Helen Moroney. Their son Standish
was
> >father to the Thomas (Grand Juror of 'The Grange') "
> >Thomas' sister Margaret married the Revd. Robert Croker
in
> >1874 and it was their children who assumed the name O
> >Grady. Their son Edward became Edward O Grady of the
> >Grange and his sister Helen ( alias Croker, now O Grady)
> >married a man (called) "Sir Swinnerton Halliday Dyer,
12th
> >Baronet of Tottenham". On the death of Edward (Croker) O
> >Grady of the Grange, his sister( Helen) , now Lady Dyer
and
> >Miss Caroline Croker became co-heirs to the property (
> >built by Thomas O Grady) at "The Grange" ... " the
house
> >was lived in until the 1940's when its fine fireplace,
> >interior doors and painted ceilings were dismantled and
> >dispersed ( so, it wasn't fired by the I.R.A., as I had
> >supposed in another email ). Like many other great
houses
> >of its type, it is destined, at best, to remain that
way. "
> >
> >Source: Article by Tony Browne, written for and
published
> >by Lough Gur & District Historical Society Journal 2000
(
> >Vol. X1), of which I am a member. It's a long article,
I
> >apologise, but to keep the tenor of the tale very little
> >editing could be done. I hope it has cleared up some
> >points, and maybe Nick Reddan will be able to clarify
the
> >family connections in respect of the gossip given to
Caleb
> >Powell by Mrs. Frend. - I found that confusing, as w
> >originally written - remember "( )" are mine.
> >
> >No personal replies - reply to LIST only, please. Thank
> >you.
> >
> >Padraig+
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Joanne Mitchell" <>
> >To: <>
> >Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: [LIMERICK] The Grange
> >
> >
> >>Hi John,
> >>
> >>>In 1861 Captain Edward CROKER (b1836, eldest son of
> >>>
> >Rev. Robert CROKER and
> >
> >>>>Margaret, dau of Standish O'GRADY) inherited the
> >>>>
> >property known as "The
> >
> >>>>Grange" from "the late T. O'Grady" (although I note
> >>>>
> >that Henry O'GRADY
> >
> >>held
> >>
> >>>>the townland of Grange in fee at the time of
> >>>>
> >Griffith's Valuation).
> >
> >>>I wonder if "the late T. O'Grady" is correct.
> >>>
> >>>If the estate came to
> >>>Margaret from "T. O'Grady", I suppose it's possible
> >>>
> >that Henry had a
> >
> >>brother
> >>
> >>>T. O'Grady who was next in line after Henry but who
> >>>
> >also died without
> >
> >>heirs
> >>
> >>>and the estate then passed to their sister Margaret,
> >>>
> >but that's more
> >
> >>>complicated.
> >>>
> >>More complicated perhaps, but also quite likely.
Looking
> >>
> >further at
> >
> >>Griffith's for Ludden civil parish, Thomas O'Grady is
> >>
> >listed as immediate
> >
> >>lessor for properties in the townlands of
Ballymacreese,
> >>
> >Luddenbeg and
> >
> >>Stonepark. Nowhere is he indicated as owning any of
the
> >>
> >land.
> >
> >>Significantly perhaps, the immediate lessors for the
> >>
> >property in
> >
> >>Ballymacreese are indicated as both Henry and Thomas
> >>
> >O'Grady.
> >
> >>It is possible that whilst Henry O'Grady owned the
estate
> >>
> >known as The
> >
> >>Grange, he leased portions of land to his younger
brother
> >>
> >(?) Thomas - not
> >
> >>an uncommon occurrence - who in turn sublet either
> >>
> >directly to tenants or
> >
> >>through agents (possibly such as Richard Rice).
> >>
> >>For Capt. Edward Croker to have inherited from Thomas
> >>
> >O'Grady, Esq. in 1861,
> >
> >>this suggests that perhaps Henry died without heirs
> >>
> >between 1851 and 1861,
> >
> >>leaving the property to pass to Thomas who then also
died
> >>
> >childless (as you
> >
> >>suggest) in 1861.
> >>
> >>One further possibility is that Thomas (and Henry)
> >>
> >O'Grady were leasing the
> >
> >>land in Ludden parish from John Croker of Ballynagarde
> >>
> >who owned much of the
> >
> >>surrounding land, however, from examining the Cancelled
> >>
> >Land Books from the
> >
> >>townland of Stonepark, it is clear that Capt. Edward
> >>
> >Croker did own land at
> >
> >>Stonepark, which tends to suggest to me that parts of
> >>
> >Ludden parish were
> >
> >>incorporated in The Grange whilst others (possibly the
> >>
> >majority) belonged to
> >
> >>the Ballynagarde estate.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>Jo Mitchell
> >>
> >>
> >>==== IRL-LIMERICK Mailing List ====
> >>Have you traveled or are you planning to travel to
> >>
> >Ireland, Australia or the UK???
> >
> >>Join a mailing list to give or get information on
hotels,
> >>
> >transportation, etc.
> >
> >>mailto:
> >>mailto:
> >>mailto:
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >==== IRL-LIMERICK Mailing List ====
> >***Join a mailing list with 24-7 ROLL CALLS***
> >Rootsweb's first totally Irish Roll Calls mailing
list...
>
>http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/IRL/IRELAND-ROLL-CALL
S.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ==== IRL-LIMERICK Mailing List ====
> GENUKI: County Limerick
http://home.pacbell.net/nymets11/genuki/LIM/index.html
> IGP Co. Limerick: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllim/
> List Archives:
http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl
> Ireland GenWeb:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6108/limerick.htm
> McCarthy Home Page with many Limerick Records:
http://wexlababe.home.att.net/
> Civil/Catholic Parishes:
http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/LIM/Parishes.html
> Jane Lyons' From-Ireland Co. Limerick Page:
http://www.from-ireland.net/contents/limerickconts.htm
>



This thread: