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From: "Dr. Jane Lyons" <>
Subject: Take some names :Re: Surely you.........& U.C.C. : .Re: [LMK] Re: Murtagh & Martin
Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 22:26:40 +0100
References: <010b01c54e8a$4f34f050$777a2544@pharmchemrop5s> <002a01c54e91$d4877a00$f072fea9@server> <002301c54eb0$f40fe460$2101a8c0@nytjxzpkk1v6ap> <004f01c54eb2$900ddce0$f072fea9@server> <006901c54eb5$0f0e7520$2101a8c0@nytjxzpkk1v6ap> <002601c54f3b$e97438e0$6501a8c0@PaddyGalligan> <001e01c54f4e$a49af7f0$2101a8c0@nytjxzpkk1v6ap> <005801c54f61$80580000$6501a8c0@PaddyGalligan>


Pádraig,

I am not trying to argue with you here - this is discussion.......

Honest.

So, take your own name Pádraig - I would pronounce that Paw - draig
Pádraig = Patrick
Páraic also = Patrick
Páraic - pronounciation. = Paw rig

Bríd = Bridget
Breedge = Bridget
Breda = Bríd = Bridget
Bedelia = Bridget = Bríd = Breedge
Delia as Bedlia

Sinéad = Jane
Jenny = Jennifer = Jane = Sinéad
Sinéad = Sionaid (according to those in other countries - not me)
Síobháin = Jane

Tigue = Tadgh
Tigue = Teege
Teidh = Tadgh

The name that you have given as confirmation re what the Professor and his
wife say - Muichertach - that's an *old* Irish name - and, I would totally
agree with it's not being related to Murtagh in any shape or form - however,
I would tend to limit my agreement to the time frame that the name was used
in - not to later times.

The Irish are/were a great group to shorten names or to give nicknames - and
sometimes, those nicknames were longer than the original name.

Last night, I made one mistake in my post, I said that Murtagh is a rare
name - I did not add that it is a rare 'given' name - that is to say that
you will not find Murtagh listed in a baptismal record all that often - the
same way as you don't find Delia listed in baptismal or civil records very
often - whereas both would be very common 'nicknames'

You do find these nicknames - or - names that people are known by listed in
parish records, but, when the person is the parent or sponsor/witness to an
event. The name is rarely found in the official naming record - that is the
baptismal record, it may be found in the marriage record as the listed name.

In the baptismal records you will find Mortimer very rarely (I've actually
never come across it that I can remember) - you will find Martin with much
more regularity. You will rarely if ever find Murtagh as a given name for
any child in parish records - you will find Murt/Mort/Murtagh in any set of
parish records regularly - as the baptismal sponsor, the witness to the
marriage, the person being married

Now, you will find Martinus in parish records - Latin ones.

Martinus = Martin = Martín = Muirtín (depending on pronounciation)
Martín = Marty
Muirtín = Murty
Murty = Murtagh
Murtagh = Martin

Murtagh does not = Muichertach.

Murtagh as a name listed in Irish records from the 1800's comes from
something totally different to the Murtagh that comes from Muichertach -
that being a much earlier name

I am not a family historian. I study names. To that effect, I transcribe a
minimum of 1,000 names from records for different time frames and different
counties every week. I am, most interestd in placenames, but, the
variations on surnames and the fact that different spellings for some, can
be associated with areas over different time frames is very interesting.

You know Pádraig - the whole bit of Martin being called Murty could be a
county thing. In my home county we call a hurl a hurl - in Limerick, they
call it a hurley. That's one example I can think of - I used to be married
to a Limerick man and himself and his family always found the fact that I
called the bit of a stick a 'hurl' hilarious. There were other words I'd
use for things that they found funny too - but the hurl always will stand
out in my mind for some reason. Also, they'd say sliothár and I'd say
slithár.........they'd say vayse and I'd say vahse.

Lots of small things go for the differences in the way we sound the same
word - and - we're all only from one teeney weeney speck in the ocean!!

Regards,

Jane


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagáin" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Surely you.........& U.C.C. : .Re: [LMK] Re: Murtagh & Martin


<snip>Exactly, no bearing whatosever to Muichertach, or its
variations.


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