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Archiver > IRL-TIPPERARY > 2007-01 > 1168811916


From: Geralyn Barry <>
Subject: Re: [IRL-TIP] MALONEY/WALL - Cashel
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:58:36 -0600
References: <827504.53421.qm@web53207.mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <827504.53421.qm@web53207.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Barb & list,

You mentioned the name Wall. There is a Wall family in my husband's
Barry line, but they came from along the Limerick-Cork border. You
mentioned that James Maloney was born in Cashel about 1821. Was Ellen's
Wall family also from Cashel? Since you already know the names of her
parents (from her death record?), you could perhaps commission a search
for her baptism in Irish records if she was from Cashel. Or have you
already done that?

Catholic records from the parish of Cashel are under the control of the
Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly, which allows official access only
through Tipperary Family History Research (TFHR). They are online at
http://www.tfhr.org/ . They will search their database of Catholic
records for a fee. It's kind of hard to start looking in Irish records
for the baptisms of brothers James and Thomas Maloney unless you know
the names of their parents. It's important to have as much information
as possible from US records when you begin searching in Ireland, since
you may find many men with the same names born in Tipperary about the
same time (and you have a span of possible birth years for James). That
dilemma takes you back to trying to find the names of his parents from
New Jersey (or other US) records.

You wrote that you can't locate a death certificate for your James
Maloney in New Jersey. Which ways did you try to do that? You only
mentioned the headstone and trying to get records from the church. Does
the cemetery perhaps keep separate records? Have you tried looking in
local newspapers (Morristown maybe?) for a death notice? Have you tried
alternate spellings like Moloney, Mullowney, Meloney, etc. in your
searches? You mentioned that James was born in Cashel. Is that
information from his headstone or from some other source?

I don't have any direct information on your family, but I have been
tracing Irish families in northern New Jersey for 17 or 18 years, so I
hope you don't mind if I ask you about your New Jersey research. Finding
out as much as possible about Irish families from records where they
lived after leaving Ireland (in this case, New Jersey) is usually the
key to finding them in Irish records.

One of the great things about researching New Jersey ancestors is the
fact that vital records (birth, marriage and death) were kept at the
state level beginning in 1848. Compliance was not 100% in the early
days, but improved as the years went by. These records can be accessed
in Trenton, New Jersey at the New Jersey State Archives. Some (but not
all) of the records at the archives are also available on microfilm from
the Family History Library. Unfortunately, the FHL does not have films
of the full "certificate" version of birth, marriage and death records
that were kept beginning in 1878. The FHL has only the "book entry"
version (one line in a book) for the post-1878 records (which is the
format for all pre-1878 records). The book version does not always
include names of parents for death records, but the certificate version
does (if their names were known to the person providing the info at
death). Even if you find the record on the FHL films, you really want
the certificate form from the NJ State Archives (if the record is from
1878 or later) because it can have additional information.

I have New Jersey roots on both my paternal (Polish) and maternal
(Irish) sides, and trace lots of peripheral relatives and associates,
especially in my Irish families. I used to live in eastern Pennsylvania
about an hour from Trenton, but for the past 14 years, I have lived
3000 miles away. So I save up my research for visits to the NJ State
Archives every few years. It would cost too much for me to hire someone
to look for all the records I collect. Plus, I just like to do my own
research whenever possible. However, in your case, since you have just
one record that may provide those all-important parents' names for James
and Thomas Maloney, you may want to hire someone to look for James'
death record at the archives in Trenton. I know there are records
searchers who will do that, but I've never hired one so can't recommend
anyone. If you ask on one of the NJ lists or boards, you may get some
specific recommendations. There is one other difficulty - New Jersey
death records for the time period of interest to you are not indexed. So
a search will probably take longer - good reason to hire a person who
looks up records there all the time, since they will know the ins and
outs of the records there.

The other possibility is for you to search the shorter format death
"books" yourself in Salt Lake City. Or you can order the films at your
local Family History Center and search them there. If you find a death
record for James, you will then have the date and can hire a records
searcher to copy the more complete certificate-format death record at
the archives. If you follow that route, you will want to search the film
series: Records of births, marriages, and deaths of New Jersey,
1848-1900, which starts with FHL film 493686. Deaths for Morris County
registered between July 1894 and June 1895 should be on FHL film 589800
and from July 1895 to June 1896 on FHL film 589803. You may need to
search other films if the date you have is not accurate.

But maybe you have already tried those strategies and still can't find a
death record for James? If what you want are the names of James'
parents, perhaps his marriage record would have those.

You wrote that James and Ellen married in the US. Do you have that
record? Did they marry in New Jersey? Did you find both a civil (if the
marriage was after 1848 in New Jersey) and a church marriage record for
them? Did they marry in Morris County (where Mine Hill is located)?
There is a column in the New Jersey civil marriage record books for
"names of parents", but it was up to the priest (if the ceremony was
Catholic) to fill that in. Sometime he did not, or only included names
of fathers (as was done in English and Irish civil registration of
marriages in that era). What appears on the civil record depends on what
the priest reported to the state on the marriage return. If you have
found a marriage record, did it have the names of his parents?

You also mentioned that James had a brother Thomas. Did he also live in
New Jersey? Do you have records for him? His vital and church records
could have the names of his parents. Did either man serve in the Civil
War? Military pension records often have very interesting genealogical
information, although it's hard to predict exactly what might be
included. If the widow survived and received a pension, a copy of her
marriage record to the soldier was usually included in the pension
application.

A search in the IGI at http://www.familysearch.org shows the following
births. Are these all for your family?

JOHN MALONY Birth: 30 MAR 1855 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey
Father: JAMES MALONY Mother: Ellen
CATHARINE MALONEY Birth: 22 OCT 1862 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey
Father: JAMES MALONEY
JAMES MALONEY Birth: 24 FEB 1864 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey
Father: JAMES MALONEY Mother: Ellen
THOMAS MALLONEY Birth: 27 JUN 1866 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey
Father: JAMES MALLONEY Mother: Ellen

LUKE MALONEY Birth: OCT 1862 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey Father:
THOMAS MALONEY
THOMAS MALONEY Birth: 10 FEB 1867 Randolph Twp, Morris, New Jersey
Father: THOMAS MALONEY Mother: Julia

These are all batch number C512281 - if you search the IGI with only
that and Region: North America, you can see all the births for Randolph
Township that were extracted into the IGI from NJ civil birth records
for the time period 1850-1867. I have found that early vital records
from Morris County seem to be somewhat incomplete. Do you have church
records for the baptisms of all the children of Thomas and James
Maloney? When I research Irish families, I always try to identify as
many potential relatives as I can (marriage witnesses, baptismal
sponsors, pension witnesses, witnesses to wills and other official
documents, people mentioned in obituaries, etc). I also try to trace
everyone in the area with the same surnames as the ones of interest to
me. The more names and other information you have when you start to look
in Irish records, the better your chances of finding the right people.

Sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck with your search!

Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon

Barbara Babbitt wrote:
> Hello List.....I think I'm pulling at straws but I don't know where to go from here!
>
> My gg-grandfather is a James Henry Maloney. He was born abt.1821 in Cashel and died 1895 in Mine Hill, New Jersey. He immigrated around 1845. He had a brother Thomas.
>
> James married Ellen M. Wall (Wahl) b. 20 Dec 1827 in Ireland daughter of Michael Wall and Alice Barrett. She died in N.J. 16 Feb 1918.
>
> James didn't marry until he arrived in the U.S. They had seven sons, William, Michael, John, James, Thomas, Edward and Richard as well as two daughters, Mary and Anna. He was an iron miner. His faith was Catholic. The 1900 U.S. Census states that they had 13 children but only 8 were still living
>
> The problem I have is that I can't locate a death certificate for James. I found 3 U.S. Census reports for him and his date of birth ranges from 1821 to 1828. His head stone indicates he died 1895 at the age of 74 years but I can't be sure because his wife's date was incorrect on the stone. I tried to get records from the church, but no luck there.
>
> I would like to find out more about James and Ellen but without more info I feel like I'm swimming up stream.
>
> Hoping someone can help!
>
> Thanks - Barb in AZ

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