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Archiver > ITALY-ARBERESH > 2004-01 > 1073929378


From: "John D. Cusimano" <>
Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] Re: Abandonment
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:46:11 -0800
In-Reply-To: <200401120901.i0C91oPb013863@lists2.rootsweb.com>


Mike,
I'm well aware of Sicilian history and, that is the reason I questioned
whether the "date" was correct or not?
1896 was well out of the Bourbon era and therefore it was improbable that
the change proposed was on the behest of Francis I.
It was obvious that "he" wasn't the one who gave the order but, you are
using faulty logic in "confirming that the conversion from Ospedale into
Conservatorio did take place in 1825" based on that information.

The fact of Francis I correct reign does not any more "confirm" the
statement that some change in status took place in 1896 than it does speak
to whether the "other" website got the fact they presented of the "change
in status" right, in 1823. You still have a conflict to sort out,
investigation to do, to see if there was some significance to the 1896
date. I'm doubtful that date is totally insignificant, or was "pulled out
of the hat", so to speak. "Something" ... some basis for that statement
probably existed for them to present that information. It's probably worth
investigating to see what it was.

This is not just a rhetorical issue, about what source "seems" right or,
what "fits your theory" or not. There is a practical purpose for sorting
these issues out, and that is... to find records, isn't it? To find
records, it is important to identify the jurisdiction involved and what the
evidence you "do" have on existing records means, in that respect.

Rather than jumping at information that "seems" to fit your "theory" and
dismissing other evidence which does not, I suggest you may want dig into
resolving some of those conflicts and issues a little more closely, if you
think it is important. Also, if you dismiss or ignore the "other"
information presented because you are only looking for "one" narrow bit of
information that conforms to your "theory" you may miss something else
important.
From what I see, from these sites and other information, there was a church
in immediate proximity to the hospital named S. Nicola, that was damaged by
an earthquake in 1823, the implication was that it was rendered unsafe or
unusable? In 1825, apparently the Bourbon government designated S.
Bartolomeo as a facility for "abandoned children". That coincidence
suggests the possibility that perhaps S. Nicola may have performed that
function prior to that time and S. Bartolomeo took on that responsibility
after the earthquake? It may be important, at some time in the future, to
see if that was actually the case?

Regardless, that new evidence of status of S. Bartolomeo and Bourbon
government's involvement strongly suggests a "secular" or "civil"
jurisdiction for handling "abandoned children", through S. Bartolomeo,
after 1825 and that may be significant. It may help understand "why" a
"civil" official in Mezzojuso might be involved in ensuring accurate
enumeration of deaths, rather than it being a "church" issue, which in just
about all other cases I've found, it seems to have been? Quite frankly, the
involvement of the mayor in the civil records on this issue didn't make
much sense to me, prior to finding out about S. Bartolomeo but, now it
seems more probable.


It would also, as I suggested, (assuming I were working on Mezzojuso) make
me more sensitive to any records I came across which mentioned "S.
Bartolomeo". The possibility exists that there would be references to
"both" S. Bartolomeo as well as Santo Spirito, regardless of what the
"official name" or status was?

An interesting thought which comes to mind, assuming some or all of the
above proves correct, is that "the church" was certainly better equipped
to handle this function and responsibility on "abandoned children" than the
Bourbon government, in the 1820's (and, the church certainly was involved
historically and traditionally). It makes me wonder if the "farming out" of
such children, from urban to rural areas may have been a phenomenon
connected uniquely to the secular side? From not having the facilities
necessary to keep up with the demand, or need,so to speak? Overcrowding?
The churches may have taken care of "their own" locally. There may have
been two different, unrelated systems handling "projetto" instances. That
might throw a whole different aspect on how you view the records.


At 02:01 AM 1/12/04 -0700, you wrote:

>John,
>
>Thanks for pointing that out. I looked at the website for which you provided
>the link. It does indeed say that the Ospedale di San Bartolomeo was
>converted in 1896 into the Conservatorio di Santo Spirito to care for
>abandoned children. However, it says also that this was done on the order
>of "Francesco I."
>
>Now compare this to another website which discusses the public hospitals of
>Palermo. You will find this page at
>http://www.ospedalecivicopa.org/civico/storia.htm. Here is the relevant
quote
>from that page: "Nel 1825 Francesco I di Borbone fece costruire la Rel casa
>dei Matti dove furono trasferiti i malati di mente. Il 4 agosto dello stesso
>anno il sovrano affrancava l’Ospedale Grande e Nuovo dal Consiglio degli
>Ospizi. Il 15 novembre decretava la trasformazione del San Bartolomeo in
>Conservatorio di Santo Spirito per i bimbi orfani. Gli ammalati che vi erano
>ricoverati venivano trasferiti nell’Ospedale Grande. Finiva praticamente
così
>la storia dell’Ospedale di San Bartolomeo le cui origini risalgono al
secolo
>XIII."
>
>Here we have the same story about the conversion of the Hospital into the
>Conservatorio by order of Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily. However,
>this webpage says his order and the transformation occurred in 1825. If that
>is true that would still make the death record in 1852 of Maria Oliva
>Proietta an indicator that she had possibly originally been brought to
>Mezzojuso from Palermo. This is leaving aside the question of
>whether "Conservatorio di Santo Spirito" was a common name throughout the
>province of Palermo, aside from Palermo itself. I will try to look into that.
>
>Just to confirm the date of 1896 versus 1825 for the conversion into the
>Conservatorio, I checked a history of Sicily written by Denis Mack Smith,
>Modern Sicily After 1713. That book has Francis I ruling as the Bourbon king
>of Sicily from 1825-1830, confirming that the conversion from Ospedale into
>Conservatorio did take place in 1825. The website you cited just has the
date

>wrong.
>
>Mike
>
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Wondering if you have seen this site? If info on it is correct, it might be
>> worthwhile to keep your eyes open in records of mentions of hospital of S.
>> Bartolomeo also?
>>
>> But, if I am reading it correctly, S. Bartolomeo, according to this,
>> apparently didn't become known as "S. Spirito" or seem to be used
>> specifically for "sheltering children" either until 1896???
>>
>> Prior to that time it seems to have been public hospital? That, again-
>> assuming this info is correct, might make your association of Maria Oliva
>> to this particular facility a bit questionable?
>>
>> I'd suggest you may want to check into the history of S. Bartolomeo to
>> resolve that conflict. If correct, then that leaves open the possibility
>> there may have been another S. Spirito "in the area" prior to that time
>> (1896)?
>>
>> I always try to find at least three independent sources for information
>> like this stuff on dates. I've found that the web and tourist information
>> is notorious for getting dates misconstrued on lesser known attractions. No
>> one seems to bother to check the facts before they publish them.
>>
>>
>> http://nauticopalermo.interfree.it/monumento/ bartolomeo/bartolomeo.htm
>>
>> BTW: Am I wrong, or is "S. Spirito" often connected to abandoned children
>> in many other areas, outside of Palermo or Sicily? I've never looked into
>> the subject of abandoned or orphan children directly but, somehow that
>> association seems familiar from something I've come across before?
>> Certainly rings a bell for some reason? Anyone know?
>>
>> At 12:01 AM 1/11/04 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >I did find one record which I think makes it quite possible that my theory
>> is
>> >correct. This is the death record for proietta Maria Oliva who died on
Aug.
>> >21, 1852 at the age of 19 days old. She had been under the care of
Maddalena
>> >Lascari. Here is the interesting part of the description: "del
Conservatorio
>> >di S. Spirito esso (or something like that) proietto." I did a search
>> >for "Conseravatorio di Santo Spirito" + Palermo in Google. One of the
>> results
>> >(at http://www.entasis.it/grandtour/palermo06.htm) was on a tourist
site, in
>> >Italian, for Palermo and this phrase appears on the page: "Il corso
termina
>> >con la piazza Santo Spirito, dove si notano una elegante fontana ,
opera del
>> >Marabitti, la Ruota (Conservatorio di Santo Spirito), il palazzo
Pojero, il
>> >palazzo Butera..." So evidently little Maria Oliva, who died in
Mezzojuso,
>> >had some connection with la Ruota in Palermo. I think that points in the
>> >direction of my theory.
>> >
>> >I will continue to look at the death records for 1856-1860 and see if
this
>> >pattern continues with the "case numbers" and if there are any other
records
>> >that mention Conservatorio di S. Spirito.
>>
>> >Mike Maddi
>> >> If it were me, I would start to work from available data, analyze it
to see
>> >> if it presented any patterns or clues, and then go from there.
>> >> Just out of curiously, I pulled a quick report from the Piana civil
records
>> >> CD on "Projetto" surname. Did a quick count of births and came up with

>> >> about 100, over approx. 80 year period covered by records. That is
average
>> >> of about 1.25 instances a year for that span. Even given the fact that
>> >> several years of records over those eight decades are probably
incomplete
>> >> or missing, in later times, for this sample of "projetto" named births,
>> >> there doesn't seem to be overwhelming number, like it was a major
>> >> phenomenon, when compared to the total instances of all births?
>>
>>
>> ==============================
>> Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
>> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
>> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930sourceid=1237
>>
>
>______________________________X-Message: #2
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:39:21 -0600
>From: "carlosquiroga" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <009201c3d89c$2b9e5380$>
>Subject: [ITA-Arberseh] Thank you very much
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="Windows-1252"
>
>To all those people who responded to my email regarding the recipe for the
Sicilian like Pizza that we call it Bastella and others call Sfinciuni,
Sfingini or Sfincione, I want to thank you very much.
>
>I have never baked anything in my life. The only thing I can do in the
kitchen is warm up my coffee in the microwave. Yesterday, Saturday, I
decided to make the so called Sicilian pizza. Because this was my project,
I insisted that I would have the last say so as to how to make it. My wife
and I had numerous arguments from how to make the bread dough to how much
quantity of everything should be put on it. Before the Sicilian ? was put
in the oven, my wife left the kitchen and in no uncertain terms refuse to
have anything to do with it. However, while she was away and without my
knowledge, she invited my daughters family and some of our friends to come
eat a Sicilian pizza!!!! It seems that she knew ahead of time what was
going to happen because she asked one of my daughters to go and buy 3
DiGorno Deluxe pizzas from the grocery store.
>
>All hell broke loose when my ? started to rise unevenly to 3 inches and
still rising like the Tower of Pizza. The top ingredients started to burn
and smoke started to come out through the oven door. By this time everybody
was laughing at me and my Sicilian ? like a bunch of chickens with the
head cut off.
>
>Results of this debacle:
>
>1- Every body ate the DiGorno pizza except me an hour later. I had to eat
my Sicilian concoction
>2-Everybody confirm the fact that I am not a cook and should leave the
cooking to my wife.
>3-HOWEVER, WHAT I DISCOVERED SATURDAY NIGHT AND TODAY IS SOMETHING
SPECTACULAR! I HAVE JUST INVENTED A NON PRESCRIPTION MEDICINE YOU CAN TAKE
THE DAY BEFORE YOU ARE SCHEDULED FOR A "COLONOSCOPY"
>
>Please, do not get offended or think it was your fault. I think I put too
much yeast, anchovies, olive oil, and anything else. I put in it everything
but the kitchen sink.
>
>I will not be able to patent this medicinal miracle because I did not
measured anything.
>

>Carlos
>
>______________________________X-Message: #3
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:56:35 -0800
>From: "P. Procida" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <>
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] MARRIAGE: RIOLA
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Hi Larry,
>
>The notice was exactly as it was in the paper. I know nothing else, but I
>did think Linatu did not have an Italian 'sound'. So today, after your
>query, I checked the California Death Index and could not find anyone named
>Linatu who died in CA. Also, I checked the 1910, 1920, 1930 census and
>could not find that name anywhere. So, and I think this is probably
>obvious, the name was misspelled according to whatever it sounded like, or
>looked like if the person could write. I also checked for deaths where the
>wife's father was named Riola. There was no Marie, and none of the ones
>listed as having Riola for a maiden name were old enough to have been 17 in
>1910. The closest name that kept reoccuring in the vicinity was Lunetta.
>
>Pat
>
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Larry Virga <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] MARRIAGE: RIOLA
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:54:49 -0800
>
>Pat, could I get more information on the Riola (sp?)/Linatu marriage...
>Thanx
>Larry Virga
>
>Yuba City, CA
>
>"P. Procida" wrote:
>
> > >From Sacramento Bee, May 28, 1910
> >
> > LINATU-RIOLA---Guuiseppe Linatu, 22, Los Angeles and Maria Riola, 17,
> > Sacramento.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
>http://wine.msn.com/
>
>______________________________X-Message: #4
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:10:20 -0600
>From: "Barbara" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <001601c3d8b9$9cfd4820$>
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] Thank you very much
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="Windows-1252"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Carlos,
>
>Thank you for sharing your cooking endeavor and bravo on the
>great discovery of they non prescriptive medicine. I really
>needed that laugh and no did not get offended.........as I too
>have had a few culinary disasters in my life.
>
>Do try to make the Sfincione again as you will be delighted with
>it and can share the story of your first attempt with your
>grandchildren.
>
>Ciao,
>Barbara Ann
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "carlosquiroga" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 5:39 PM
>Subject: [ITA-Arberseh] Thank you very much
>
>
>> To all those people who responded to my email regarding the
>recipe for the Sicilian like Pizza that we call it Bastella and
>others call Sfinciuni, Sfingini or Sfincione, I want to thank you
>very much.
>>
>> I have never baked anything in my life. The only thing I can do
>in the kitchen is warm up my coffee in the microwave. Yesterday,
>Saturday, I decided to make the so called Sicilian pizza. Because

>this was my project, I insisted that I would have the last say so
>as to how to make it. My wife and I had numerous arguments from
>how to make the bread dough to how much quantity of everything
>should be put on it. Before the Sicilian ? was put in the oven,
>my wife left the kitchen and in no uncertain terms refuse to have
>anything to do with it. However, while she was away and without
>my knowledge, she invited my daughters family and some of our
>friends to come eat a Sicilian pizza!!!! It seems that she knew
>ahead of time what was going to happen because she asked one of
>my daughters to go and buy 3 DiGorno Deluxe pizzas from the
>grocery store.
>>
>> All hell broke loose when my ? started to rise unevenly to 3
>inches and still rising like the Tower of Pizza. The top
>ingredients started to burn and smoke started to come out through
>the oven door. By this time everybody was laughing at me and my
>Sicilian ? like a bunch of chickens with the head cut off.
>>
>> Results of this debacle:
>>
>> 1- Every body ate the DiGorno pizza except me an hour later. I
>had to eat my Sicilian concoction
>> 2-Everybody confirm the fact that I am not a cook and should
>leave the cooking to my wife.
>> 3-HOWEVER, WHAT I DISCOVERED SATURDAY NIGHT AND TODAY IS
>SOMETHING SPECTACULAR! I HAVE JUST INVENTED A NON PRESCRIPTION
>MEDICINE YOU CAN TAKE THE DAY BEFORE YOU ARE SCHEDULED FOR A
>"COLONOSCOPY"
>>
>> Please, do not get offended or think it was your fault. I think
>I put too much yeast, anchovies, olive oil, and anything else. I
>put in it everything but the kitchen sink.
>>
>> I will not be able to patent this medicinal miracle because I
>did not measured anything.
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> ==============================
>> Gain access to over two billion names including the new
>Immigration
>> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn
>more.
>>
>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930sourceid=1237
>>
>
>______________________________X-Message: #5
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:31:43 -0800
>From: "Leita" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <005001c3d8bc$99bf2cc0$>
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] Thank you very much
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="Windows-1252"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Carlos,
>Loved your fun story about the Sicilian Pizza. I could almost smell the
>smoking anchovies. Better luck next time!
>It is a rare cook that can say that they never had failures. When our son
>was small he loved a breakfast dish with a white sauce. White sauce is like
>bread, one has to have a bit of practice to make it. When he was about 12
>he decided to make us this dish every Sunday morning.
>It got so that Bill and I would hear him in the kitchen cooking and we would
>look at each other and smile and say in unison "It's wallpaper paste for
>breakfast this morning." Now he is a not only a good cook, he is a great
>cook.
>Leita
>
>______________________________X-Message: #6
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:32:12 -0800
>From: "Jo Saunders" <>
>To:

>Message-ID: <>
>Subject: [ITA-Arberseh] Just testing
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="windows-1256"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>This is just a test to see if I am posting in plain text.
>Jo Saunders
>
>
>______________________________X-Message: #7
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:55:49 -0800
>From: "Josie" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <005101c3d8c8$dc71a500$>
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] Just testing
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="windows-1256"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Your subject and address are small, but the rest is very readable. Looks
>plain to me.
>
>Josie
>
>______________________________X-Message: #8
>Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:05:29 -0600
>From: "Barbara" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <000f01c3d8c9$b5b574e0$>
>Subject: Re: [ITA-Arberseh] Just testing
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="windows-1256"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Jo.........the font is a bit small and hard to read with these
>old eyes......... :-)
>
>Barbara Ann
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jo Saunders" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 10:32 PM
>Subject: [ITA-Arberseh] Just testing
>
>
>> This is just a test to see if I am posting in plain text.
>> Jo Saunders
>>
>>
>>
>> ==============================
>> Gain access to over two billion names including the new
>Immigration
>> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn
>more.
>>
>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930sourceid=1237
>>
>


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