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From: Norman Kincaide <>
Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Lecture at Rocky Ford Museum, Rocky Ford, CO
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:31:40 -0700 (PDT)
References: <412757.72548.qm@web110008.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><738AED853699437CB568EEBBA093CD8F@Susan>
In-Reply-To: <738AED853699437CB568EEBBA093CD8F@Susan>


It was fun and generated a good discussion following to further explain Surname DNA projects and how one can participate. 

Norm Kincaide



----- Original Message ----
From: Sue Liedtke <>
To:
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 10:25:54 AM
Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Lecture at Rocky Ford Museum, Rocky Ford, CO

Very good Norm. A very affective use of our data to illustrate the use of
DNA.

Sue Liedtke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Kincaide" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 7:16 AM
Subject: [KINCAID] Lecture at Rocky Ford Museum, Rocky Ford, CO


> Dear Kincaid listers, I presented a lecture for the Rocky Ford Musuem
> Summer Lecture series on
>
> DNA, Family History & the Historical Record. Here is the text of my
> lecture, about 20 minutes in length which generated a half hour question
> and answer segment and inspired at least one attendee to pursue a Y DNA
> test.
>
> Sincerely
> Norman Kincaide #4164
>
> DNA, Family History & the Historical Record
>
> By
>
> Norman L. Kincaide, Ph.D.
>
> The application of DNA testing to genealogy has produced another tool for
> family history researchers. The testing of Y DNA chromosomes is applied to
> the human male since Y DNA is the determinant of male sexuality.
> Mitochondrial DNA is used to study the human female genetic record. Human
> males pass their Y DNA to their male offspring who then pass it onto their
> male progeny. Human females pass their mitochondrial DNA to both their
> male and female offspring but the males do not pass their mother’s
> mitochondrial DNA to any their progeny.
> The Kincaid Surname DNA Project, founded by Peter Kincaid of New
> Brunswick, Canada in 2002, has 139 participants. The make up of the
> project is not a scientific sampling according to scientific sampling
> methods. The project is entirely dependent upon those individuals who are
> interested in having their DNA tested and investigating their own family
> history to see where their lineage falls within the over all sampling of
> Kincaid DNA and proven Kincaid lineages.
> This fairly large sampling has allowed for subdivision into several
> groups, the two largest being, Groups A and C. Group A has 83 samples,
> Group C twenty-one. Group A has subsets: Set 1, 2, and 4. Group C has
> subsets, 1 and 2. The pertinent sets for this presentation are Group A,
> set 1b and Group C, set 2.
> What Kincaid researchers have found through the application of DNA to the
> extant and largely accepted Kincaid lineages is that some lineages have
> been effectively deconstructed and the grouping of Kincaid DNA has more
> effectively determined which Kincaids are more closely related genetically
> and how this genetic closeness is logically applied to paper trail
> evidence and how it can either validate or invalidate an accepted lineage.
> This is where family history comes into play.
> Family history is that record of family events set down by a family
> historian. This record may contain what is known as family tradition.
> Family tradition is based on what is told of the family history and can be
> based upon the actual historical record. This mingling of tradition and
> historical fact can lead to distortions of what actually happened.
> Sometimes family tradition may hold more of the truth than family members
> are willing to credit.
> A historical record is a documented historical occurrence or event, like a
> tax, military service, or church record, birth or death certificate, a
> deed, will, or court record, a pension application, a personal journal, or
> even a headstone. These records are taken and applied to a family history.
> Sometimes these records are well validated and corroborated by family
> historians and sometimes they are not. Developing an effective paper trail
> is in effect, nailing an ancestors foot to the floor of where he lived,
> paid taxes, bought and sold property, served in the military, went to
> court, worshiped, married, had children and died, somewhere. He could be
> taxed for more than one parcel of property, but he could only die once. An
> estate, however, could be administered for many years or even decades
> after death. What follows is the compilation of a family history published
> in 1922 by G.L. Kincaid of Sardinia, Brown County, Ohio.
>
> From the Kincaid Genealogy by G. L. Kincaid
>
> Family tradition says that the father of Samuel Kincaid who married Sarah
> Reed, was Robert Kincaid and Margaret Daugherty. It was said that Robert
> Kincaid and Margaret Daugherty were married in Ireland and came to
> America, locating at or near where the City of Pittsburgh, PA is now
> located. It was indisputable that Samuel Kincaid enlisted as a soldier in
> 1812 and was killed and buried at Fort Meigs as is evidenced in his family
> Bible is still in existence that lists the time and place of his death, in
> addition to the names and dates of birth of each of his children, but
> contains nothing to show the names of his father or mother.
>
> G.L. Kincaid then goes on to relate the following:
>
> On September 12th 1684 John Kincaid, Presbyterian Preacher, of Campsie
> Parish, Stirlingshire, Scotland, was with 25 others, tried ( on account of
> their religious belief) in the market place of Edinburgh, Scotland, by
> Lord Claverhouse’s emissaries, and after burning three and hanging four,
> John Kincaid, was with the remainder, riveted fast to a chain and exiled
> in a galley to Barbados, West Indies, whence with the assistance of his
> family, he escaped and settled at Upland, PA.
> This John Kincaid had three sons: John, Thomas, and Samuel. One of the
> three brothers, (not certain which) had a son, John who was a Captain in
> the 7th Company, 1st Class, Chester County, Militia, in Colonel Evans
> Battalion, and later Military storekeeper at the Manor Meeting House in
> Chester County, PA. (No vital dates as to birth or death), but he had a
> son Thomas who was born at Londonderry, Chester County, PA on Dec. 13th,
> 1755 and died July 3, 1819 and is buried at Winchester, Ohio. He was a
> sergeant in Capt. William Henderson’s Company, Daniel Morgan’s Rifle
> Regiment of Sharpshooters in the war of the Revolution. He married Mary
> Mackey in Washington County, Maryland, October 27, 1778. He went with a
> large Pennsylvania migration to Maysville, [Mason County] KY in 1796 then
> to the block houses at Manchester, Adams County, OH in 1797. He had three
> sons: Thomas, Col. John, and Samuel (who died at Fort Meigs).
>
> So what is the historical record for the above family tradition and the
> subsequent history compiled by G.L. Kincaid? What is actually true? I
> should state here that these early researchers did the best they could
> with the information extant at the time. They did not know about DNA in
> 1922. We cannot judge, harshly, if they extrapolated beyond their data and
> that perhaps other researchers accepted it as fact. That said, what is the
> true historical record for the above Samuel Kincaid who married Sarah
> Reed? First, I will deal with the early record.
>
> John Kincaid was convicted and sailed aboard the Henry & Francis with
> other prisoners,
> from the road of Leith on Sept. 5, 1685, landed at Perth Amboy, NJ,
> December 1685.
> There is no evidence to indicate that this John Kincaid was the ancestor
> to any of the
> Kinkeads who appeared on the Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA tax
> list in
> 1729 or that his sons settled in Upland (later Chester County, PA),
> Pennsylvania.
>
> The above John Kincaid was indeed convicted and ordered to be transported
> to the
> plantations in Virginia, not Barbados. The Henry & Francis, however,
> landed at
> Perth Amboy, NJ due to adverse weather. John Kincaid is listed on the
> manifest as
> having survived the journey, which claimed the lives of several of the
> passengers.
> This is the only record of this John Kincaid in America. No record has
> been found of
> him, yet, in New Jersey or Pennsylvania.
>
> The first true record of a Kincaid in Pennsylvania is the following.
> James Kinkead taxed in Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA and John
> Kinkead
> taxed in Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA in 1729. From the tax lists
> for Chester
> County at the Chester County Archives and Records Service, West Chester,
> PA.
>
> James Kinkade was taxed in Chester County, PA until 1736, thereafter he is
> missing
> until there is a notice in 1752 that he died in Barbados and his brother,
> John Kinkead of
> Chester County, PA was named as his administrator. No list of heirs has
> yet been
> discovered for this James Kinkade.
>
> John Kinkade (1700-1771) of Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA had a
> large family
> with five sons: John Jr., David, Samuel, Charles and James, and at least
> four daughters:
> Mary married John Simral and Agnes married Adam Hope, two daughters
> married to
> Josiah Crawford and Thomas Kilpatrick. John Kinkade of Sadsbury Township
> died in 1771,
> his heirs above were listed in his will. This John Kinkade did not have a
> son named, Thomas.
> John Jr., however, was elected Captain in the Chester County PA Militia.
> He was supposed
> to be the father of Thomas Kincaid above who married Mary Mackey and
> grandfather of
> Samuel Kincaid who died at Fort Meigs.
>
> This John Kinkead was, indeed, commissioned captain of the 7th Company,
> 2nd Battalion,
> Elk Battalion, Chester County, PA Militia, under Col. William Montgomery,
> on May 5,
> 1777. He was from Oxford Township, Chester County, PA. Pennsylvania
> Archives,
> Series 5, Vol. 5, p. 513. John Kinkead Jr. later resided in Bart and
> Drumore Townships,
> Lancaster County, PA after 1785. He died in Nov. 1812 and listed the
> following children
> in his will: David, Elizabeth, Polly, and John. No Thomas.
>
> In fact, no Thomas Kincaid can be found on any tax list for Chester
> County, PA from
> 1729-1800, nor referenced in any deed, will, militia list or church
> record. Nor was he
> a sergeant in Morgan’s Rifles during the Revolutionary War.
>
> There was speculation on the Kincaid discussion list, particularly between
> myself and Alice Gedge from
> Utah, that Thomas Kincaid who married Mary Mackey was the son of David
> Kinkead, son of John
> Kinkead of Sadsbury Township. This David Kinkead lived in Londonderry
> Township, Chester County,
> PA as early as 1756 when he is taxed as a married man. This coincided with
> the stated birth date of
> Thomas Kincaid of 1755. David Kinkead was later found in Bourbon County,
> KY by 1791 and his will,
> written in 1795, proved in 1797, listed his children: Mary, Thomas, Nancy,
> Elizabeth, David, Joseph, and
> Samuel. Close proximity of Bourbon County, KY to Adams County, OH led to
> speculation by Alice and
> myself that Thomas Kincaid/Mary Mackey was the son of David Kinkead of
> Bourbon County, KY.
>
> There is no paper trail from Thomas Kincaid who married Mary Mackey to the
> Chester County, PA
> Kincaids. The first real citations to Thomas Kincaid who married Mary
> Mackey are in Hamilton
> Township, Cumberland County, PA where Thomas Kincaid first served as a
> private, later sergeant, 3rd
> Company, 6th Battalion, Cumberland County, PA Militia in 1778. He is taxed
> in Hamilton Township,
> Cumberland County, PA along with a Robert Kinkead from 1779 to 1782, and
> in 1785 they are found in
> Hamilton Township, Franklin County, PA when that county was erected from
> the western part of
> Cumberland County, PA. Thomas Kincaid and Mary Mackey had a son, Samuel
> born in Hamilton
> Township, Franklin County, PA in 1787. In 1789 Thomas Kincaid moved to St.
> Clair Township,
> Allegheny County, PA, then to Maysville, KY, thence to Winchester, Adams
> County, OH by 1800.
>
> So what of Samuel Kincaid who married Sarah Reed, they are also found in
> St. Clair Township,
> Allegheny County, PA where they sold 50 acres on Lick Run to John Kennedy
> on April 1, 1795.
> They had a son, Matthew, born July 16, 1793 in Allegheny County, PA. They
> moved to Adams County
> Ohio by 1798 where Samuel was appointed Court Constable and again in 1800.
>
> This places both Thomas Kincaid who married Mary Mackey and Samuel Kincaid
> who married Sarah Reed in Adams County, OH in 1800.
>
> This is where DNA testing came into the research and set the stage for
> some remarkable results.
> Three DNA samples, one from Thomas Kincaid’s line #16491, one from Samuel
> Kincaid’s line #44937, and the third from David Kinkead, Bourbon County,
> KY #37382 are shown below. Thomas and Samuel’s samples returned an exact
> match for the first 24 markers. David Kinkead’s sample, however, showed a
> nine mutation difference from Thomas and Samuel’s samples.
>
> Although the test was for 37 markers, only the first 24 are shown here due
> to space limitations. These results are found at the Kincaid Surname DNA
> project page on the Family Tree DNA website and on Alice Gedge’s freepage
> for the Kincaid Surname DNA project at Rootswebcom.
>
> 16491: 13, 25, 14, 10, 11, 14, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 30, 17, 9, 10, 11, 11,
> 25, 15, 19, 30, 15, 15, 17
> 44937: 13, 25, 14, 10, 11, 14, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 30, 17, 9, 10, 11, 11,
> 25, 15, 19, 30, 15, 15, 17
> 37382: 13, 23, 14, 12, 11, 14, 12, 12, 11, 13, 13, 29, 16, 9, 10, 11, 11,
> 24, 15, 18, 29, 15, 16, 17
>
> Thomas Kincaid/Mary Mackey No. [16491] through their son Samuel Kincaid,
> was submitted to Family Tree DNA, Houston, TX in January 2004 by a direct
> descendant of Thomas Kincaid/Mary Mackey. Samuel Kincaid/Sarah Reed, No.
> [44937] was submitted for testing to Family Tree DNA in Oct. 2005. David
> Kinkead’s sample was returned in August 2005.
> Some members of the Kincaid discussion list, myself included, thought that
> sample No. 37382 would fall into DNA Group C with Sample 16491, Thomas
> Kincaid/Mary Mackey since the family history compiled above had connected
> them to the Chester County, PA Kincaids. Instead, sample No. 3738, fell
> into Group A, set 1. To quote my own email from August 30, 2005:
>
> “Dear Kincaid-listers, it has been a very rewarding day with the results
> of the David Kinkead of Bourbon County, KY DNA results. Many thanks go to
> Shirley Patchen who collected the date for the paper trail as well as the
> DNA sample # 37382. Although this sample did not fall into the Group I
> thought it would, it has turned the research in different directions.
> Group C, set 2 can turn away from the Sadsbury Township, Chester County,
> PA Kincaids as a possible source. On the other hand, Group A, set 1, can
> look to the Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA Kincaids as a possible
> connection. More samples from these descendants would help to verify the
> Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA Kincaid line.”
>
> These two groups: A and C are so far removed from one another,
> genetically, that they could not have had a recent common ancestor within
> several thousand years. There are ten mutations difference between Group A
> and Group C in the first 24 markers. The Samuel Kincaid/Sarah Reed sample
> 44937 came Oct. 2005 and matched sample 16491 in all of the first 24
> markers, thus validating the Group C finding for Thomas Kincaid who
> married Mary Mackey. Thomas Kincaid and Samuel Kincaid were most likely
> sons of Robert Kincaid and Margaret Daugherty. This also validated the
> family tradition related in the first paragraph of G.L. Kincaid’s
> genealogy.
> Another sample # 119921 which traced to Samuel Kinkead (1736-1810) of Fawn
> Township, York County, PA, and has a circumstantial connection to Sadsbury
> Township, Chester County, PA, is 47 miles from Sadsbury Township, Chester
> County, PA, validated David Kinkead of Bourbon County, KY’s sample # 37382
> by matching it exactly for the first 37 markers except at 2 markers. The
> DNA matches for Group C, and Group A have formed, what I call, DNA
> clusters, geographic areas in which is found closely related DNA matches.
> Group C, set 2, Thomas Kincaid who married Mary Mackey, is located first
> in Hamilton Township, Cumberland County, PA and there is now an
> identifiable DNA cluster that is also found in August County, VA. The
> beginning of a DNA cluster has been formed by samples 37382 and 119921 in
> Chester County, PA and extends to York County, PA.
> My own DNA cluster Group A, set 2a & 2b is centered on Carlisle,
> Cumberland County, PA and includes Kincaids in Middleton, Toboyne, Tyrone,
> West Pennsborough and Dickinson Townships. The patriarch of this cluster
> is John Kinkead, merchant of Carlisle, born 1720, died 1772. The first DNA
> sample, #9736, for this line came from a supposed descendant of John
> Kinkead’s son, Thomas Kinkead who married Hannah Clingan. This sample was
> returned early in 2004. His sample fell into Group C, set 2. I found this
> rather strange as John Kinkead the Merchant of Carlisle had considerable
> contact with my ancestor George Kinkead of Toboyne Township, Cumberland
> County, PA. I had made the assumption that they were somehow related.
> Then another sample, # 93625, from merchant’s son, John Kinkead Jr.’s line
> was returned in August 2007 which fell into Group A, set 2b. Which is
> where my sample, 4164 fell. This produced a conflict between the paper
> trails for Thomas in Group C and John Jr. in Group A. They are definitely
> not closely related, genetically. John Kinkead Jr. had a much more viable
> paper trail back to John Kinkead the Merchant of Carlisle through a
> Revolutionary War pension application and the property he inherited from
> his father, and hence I accepted that DNA result as the true
> representative of that line. This result startled the Kincaid list again
> and generated much discussion on these results. Kincaid researchers are in
> for more surprises as DNA testing continues for the Kincaid Surname DNA
> project.
>
>
>
>
> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel:
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls
>
> To join the DNA project, go to:
> www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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> quotes in the subject and the body of the message



To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls

To join the DNA project, go to:
www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027




-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message





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