LONDON-L ArchivesArchiver > LONDON > 2009-03 > 1237075416
From: Patricia Barsby <>
Subject: Re: [LON] APPRENTICE PAPERS
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:03:36 +0000
Thank you Caroline for your input to my problem and apologies for my spelling slip on Barbsy instead of 'Barsby'in my original posting.
I have traced through census years both the families that have been suggested to me through this site and unforunately the William born to John & Sarah Barsby [nee Clark] died age 4 years. They never had another William, plus the family moved out of county whereas my William stayed put.
It's a possibility that the William and Elizabeth [nee Lloyd] are of my family, though William's age seems a little out on the 1881 census, 8 years? Elizabeth died along with their two sons within a few years of census, which did leave him available to 'marry' Ann Rose Charles, however not to be able to be with her permanently at the same time that Ann Barsby [dau] was born in 1873, assuming that she was his child.
The large gap between the children's ages may have been the result of Ann losing 4 children. The other one died much later. The later relationship for Ann I mentioned in 1901 seems to have her as a common law wife, since I found no marriage for them either and on the 1911 census she still goes under the surname of Barsby.
There is one other William Barsby on census age 8 in 1851 living with his mother Martha and two brothers in Bethnal Green, but he doesn't appear on a later census and another Barsby researcher from some years ago believes this one to be the William who married Elizabeth Lloyd from the above paragraph and of her line and probably not of mine. His father was a Sea Captain. However at least one of this William's brothers was also a chairmaker.
So with no idea where he was when I cannot find him on census, I'm having trouble fitting him in positivly with anyone, hence my brick wall!
I'm always very grateful for any suggestions, as perhaps others can see something I may not have thought of or can think of another avenue for me to persue.
Thank you so much once again,
> From: caroline.bradford
> Subject: RE: [LON] APPRENTICE PAPERS
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:45:22 +0000
> Hi Patricia
> You've got a really slippery one here! Firstly, though I hate to disappoint
> you, apprentice records are not your best route. By the 19th century,
> apprenticeships were, by and large, a private matter between master and
> apprentice and there were no official records kept (except where a young lad
> was under the care of the Parish authorities and they organised the
> I don't think that destruction of BMD records is the problem here. Whilst
> there is no doubt that the registration of a fair number of events were
> "lost" in the various processes involved from initial registration to the
> creation of the GRO index, the most likely reason for not finding a birth is
> that it was either not registered at all or registered under an unexpected
> name. As to marriages, the commonest reason for not finding them is because
> they did not happen.
> The fact that Ann Rose CHARLES married under that name in 1892 (I presume
> that is she) is very suggestive of her never having been Mrs BARSBY at all
> (women very rarely risked bigamous marriages). The very large gap between
> the older and younger children in 1891 might indicate that the two groups
> had different mothers.
> There is a possible William BARSBY in 1881 married (or probably not!) to an
> Elizabeth from Wales. I wonder if there is a link between this couple (who
> have a 7 week old son called Alan) and the other family in the same street
> whose name seems to have been written as "Bursby". There are two Allans in
> that family and it was a very unusual name at the time.
> Have you ruled out the William BARSBY born in Bethnal Green in Q4 1848? Or
> the family in 1851 with father John and mother Sarah?
> Hope some of this helps
> Subject: [LON] APPRENTICE PAPERS
> I have reached a dead end and need some other avenue with which to look for
> possible parentage, since many BMD records for the area seem to have been
> Would anyone on the list know of where to look for any existing records/CD
> for Carpentry/Chairmaker Apprentice papers for around 1860 onward covering
> Whitechapel/Bethnal Green/Poplar areas.
> I can get no further back on my BARBSY line than the approximate birth of
> our WILLIAM PATTISON BARBSY circa 1848 in Whitechapel. He was a chairmaker
> and later a toy-maker.
> I have been in touch with Tower Hamlets Records Office and searched for
> birth or marriage certificates with nothing forthcoming.
> I do know that he married Ann Rose Charles and died at Poplar in 1896. I
> also have the 1891 census of the family though nothing definate for earlier
> years. The 1901 shows Ann in another relationship but the 1911 is much more
> interesting in that it gives the number of children born as 10 and the
> surving number as 5. Of these surviving children I only know of :
> Ann born 1871 Shoreditch [no cert of birth or marriage]
> Sarah born 1876 Whitechapel [no cert of birth or marriage]
> William Pattison [birth/marriage/death found and direct line]
> Lilian born 1894 Poplar [Birth/marriage/death found]
> So if anyone can help or add anthing to the above that may offer new leads I
> would be extremely grateful.
> Thank you for your patience in reading through this far.
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